1968 Trophy TR6 restoration project - Page 4 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Member's Restoration & Rebuild Projects Details of member's own projects.

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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 10:42 AM
SOTP Vintage Series
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Hi Rod,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmoggy View Post
68 saw the ignition switch moved to the left fork ear.
Missed that. Thanks. Corrected.

Regards,

Stuart
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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 02:27 PM
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Would like to paint my Bitsa frame very much, but unfortunately don't have a space for it.
So it will be powder coated like ma Trident frame.
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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1968 Trophy "project"
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Frame top coat done and I'm calling it a night. Just need to flat it back tomorrow evening and put the lacquer on. Then a couple of days to harden, and the first new bolts should be going in by the weekend.

I painted and lacquered the bottom halves of the lower tubes last week, so the frame has been resting on dry, finished paint. If theres any obvious lines when it's all done, I'll cut the two jobs in if needed, but given the location (You'd need to inspect the finish on your hands and knees) it should be fine.

Couldn't resist a little before and after (well, still during technically) pic. I would call it an improvement 🙂
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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
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Thank you so much Stuart. Really good info as always, especially on the wiring. Very much appreciate your description of the basis of your loom design. Logical and easy to follow, thank you. Component suppliers noted too.

Interesting you mention those replica clocks. Are they any good? I wouldnít expect miracles for that money, but they seem almost too cheap.
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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1968 Trophy "project"
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Sorry Stuart, now I am in front of a proper computer, I want to give your massively helpful and detailed post the response it deserves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Hi Dan,


So you should be, looks PDG in your pictures.

One thing to be aware of is, when you start to tighten nuts and bolts, even if you put a washer under the nut/bolt, the washer'll still rotate and gouge a circular mark in the paint; they do even in powder-coating. One way I reduced the gouging considerably was to use two thin (generally 1 mm. thick) washers back-to-back.
I did wonder about this. I've ordered a load of thin washers, so will try this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Ashley Pople for repairs (the rev. counter could probably also do with a service?) or a pair of the 'sixty-quid pattern' ones?


If you wire it in, connect a short length of wire between its terminals. It'll then only indicate half what's actually either being drawn from or charging the battery but, when (note not "if" ) vibration does disintegrate the Ammeter, it won't stop the bike ... unless a loose part falls somewhere to make a short-circuit and blow the main fuse ... Note also that, on a Brit twin, vibration does ... errr ... affect ... "indicate" ...
Have you any experience of these pattern clocks? They seem suspiciously cheap to me, but I'm aware there are bargains out there. The idea of just putting new ones in at that price appeals massively.

Re the ammeter, the other idea I had on this (not sure if it's workable) is to wire in a permanent bypass, but broken with a switch. This would normally be off, sending everything through the ammeter (so a correct reading). If the ammeter were to fail for any reason and go open circuit, simply flicking the switch on should connect the bypass wire and allow the bike to run. I haven't got as far as thinking about where to locate this switch yet. It's just an idea at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post

Used a '70/'73-'75 'dry frame' grab rail - these have the 'hoop' behind the seat and rear indicator mounting holes in the triangular gussets between the two 'hoops'. Note: you can't use an oif grabrail as the "'hoop' behind the seat" is further forward; '71/'72 have smaller holes in the gussets, to mount reflectors.
My grab rail has holes in the gussets which would look to be ideal for indicator mounting (see pic). I was really hoping to save this after an initially very encouraging response to some tin foil and WD40, and for the most part, it cleaned up quite nicely, but there's some heavier corrosion on the tube on the inside of the gussets which is just a little too far gone to save, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post

Didn't fancy standard Lucas indicators so I bought something smaller and less-obtrusive from M&P. Mine have 10mm. OD stems; the mounting holes in the headlamp brackets and grabrail are 7/16" ID for Lucas indicators so I filled the gaps with off-the-shelf O-rings for a bit of extra vibe protection. Also, the M&P indicators had supply and return wires as standard, Risking telling you something you know already, if you pick LED indicators, you need a LED-specific relay.

. Replaced the standard horn-'n'-dipswitch with the cluster used first on the T160, later on the '76-'78 twins - adds indicators switch and headlamp flash to the horn and dipswitch functions. The Sparx pattern is more-easily available than original Lucas but the quality of much recent Sparx stuff isn't great. Hinckley used a not-dissimilar-looking cluster pre-'04 and there's a US company that also makes one, albeit they're both in black with some brightly-coloured levers and buttons. Hinckley also used a compact kill (and electric-start) switch on the right 'bar. I can supply more details of the Hinckley and other cluster if required.
All great info, thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Modern voltage regulator - I recommend either A-Reg3, Podtronics 3-phase or https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Motor...0AAOSw4DJdBwME (plus https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Perf...4AAOSwaOpbmiiB). The first two both have great customer backup, the Ebay one is so cheap you can buy two ... but they have proved very reliable. 3-phase reg./rec. because: you can connect the bike's existing single-phase alternator to one; when you come to upgrade the alternator, 3-phase is the 'most bang for your buck' so not a lot of point also paying to upgrade a relatively-new single-phase reg./rec.

Aside, your bike's original alternator stator was/is 3-wire but single-phase; also, it's relatively feeble by modern standards - ~8.5 Amps/100 Watts @ 5,000 rpm, assuming original 51-year-old rotor magnetism is still good ...
All good info, thank you. I will upgrade the alternator as a matter of course. It seems daft to re-use the old one given the extent of the project. I've heard lots of good things about Podtronics regulators, but the eBay one is a thought given it's so cheap as to be effectively disposable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
You know it doesn't change how the electrics actually work? I swap between the two 'systems' without any problems, bearing in mind 'earth' in DC is just jargon, so I never think of it.
I was thinking the same thing as I typed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
I rewired my first Triumph - one of my T160's - over the '82/'83 winter, followed the Lucas system and the electrics have been totally reliable; subsequently, I've also made the electrics of several old Jap bikes more reliable using the same principles ... The system I use was/is a simplification of what I found in the T160's original loom; I've used it ever since on every bike I've rewired:-

. Two '8-way' (four wires in each end) standard bullet snap connectors, one in the headlamp shell, one in the area under the seat;

. individual components connected to the nearest '8-way', including the battery 'earth terminal' to the under-seat 8-way;

. the two 8-ways connected together by two lengths of thicker wire, those two lengths joined:-

.. either at a ring terminal attached to an engine component (e.g. one of the head-steady bolts);

.. or at a '4-way' (two wires in each end) standard bullet snap connector above said engine component, with another wire from the 4-way to the engine component.


Again bear in mind, while your bike didn't have a separate "accessories" circuit, as standard it had separate circuits for ignition, headlamp, other lamps and horn. However, unless you're a habitual Idiot's Lantern user, you might find an actual "accessories circuit" is unnecessary - with standard 'original Lucas' colour codes easily-available, unswitched, switched-by-ignition, switched-by-lights and common supply or return wiring are easily-identifiable for connecting additional gadgets.

Fuses - is advising blade fuses stating the obvious?

The practical problem I've encountered with separate fuses for different circuits is - as both the switches that separate the circuits and the items they switch are mostly at the front of the bike - where to mount the fuse box/group the fuse holders without running lots of wires up and down the bike? Year or so ago, guy who posts on Britbike and I discussed this, and he was coming up with a small fuse holder using 'mini blade' fuses to fit in the back of the headlamp shell, but 'fraid I don't know how far he's progressed.

One fuse I most-strongly recommend is the 'main' fuse in the one-and-only wire attached to the battery 'earth' (positive or negative) terminal. For reasons now 'lost in the mists', '68-on, 'original Lucas' moved the main/only standard fuse from the battery 'earth terminal' to the 'non-earth terminal'; as you find in all the old-Britbike internet forums, hapless owners have found this later fuse position doesn't protect from an increasingly-common type of short-circuit ...

Because the main fuse is the solitary wire to/from one battery terminal (say battery +ve as standard on your bike), while individual circuit fuses would be connected to the other battery terminal (say battery -ve on your bike), I've often found it easier to using individual fuse holders that clip together - additional holders for spare fuses are easy to include and, if possible, fuse holders can be grouped easily.
Fantastic help! Thank you Your suggested layout seems very logical and straightforward. I want to keep in mind 'fixability' and expandability (if needed) as I do this, and your point about using wire colours to identify the groups (and sticking to the Lucas colour scheme) is noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Answers to questions you didn't ask:-
Suppliers - I've used Vehicle Wiring Products and Autosparks since that first rewire, always good service, never any problems.

Wire - I use mainly 9-strand (9/0.030) to and from individual components, except where the 'original Lucas' colour code isn't available, when I use 14/0.30. I use 28/0.30 'thinwall' for wires common to several circuits - Brown/Blue, Brown/White, Red or Black ('positive earth' or 'negative earth' respectively) between the two 8-way snap connectors and from one to the respective battery terminal. I use these wire sizes specifically because crimp-on bullet terminals that work long-term are easily-available.

Terminals - Never had any problems with standard crimp-on 1/4" (wide) spades or 3/16" OD bullets. Many modern pattern electrical component makers use 3.9 mm. OD 'Japanese bullets', they're OK in themselves but the multi-way female connectors are harder to obtain and are limited to 4-way maximum; rewiring Japanese bikes, I often use 3/16" OD bullets simply because up to 8-way common connectors are available.

Wrapping - Never wrapped a harness I've built. I usually build on the bike; when the first one was finished, I didn't have any overwhelming desire to detach it from the bike to wrap it and then reattach it. The accessibility has since proved a boon for modifications and upgrades. Most of the wiring's covered by seat, tank and sidepanel; any still exposed (e.g. between tank and headlamp shell) I cover with what's called either Slit Convoluted Tubing or Split Convoluted Conduit; same stuff, the Slit/Split is along the Tubing/Conduit so it can be fitted over/pulled off wires without needing to disconnect and thread them.
Great advice, and thanks for the supplier recommendations. I was pondering wrapping, as I couldn't work out how to do it without pulling it all off again. Will investigate the split tubing you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Hth.
Massively, thank you
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Last edited by Postie2003; 08-20-2019 at 05:58 AM. Reason: Corrected quote error
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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
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Reassembly has officially begun. Feels like the first milestone, albeit in a very long road ahead.
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 04:58 PM
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Lash the frame to the jack arms, or you might regret it later.

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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 09:21 AM
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Congrats with your finished frame, what do you plan to do with wheels ?
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1968 Trophy "project"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPaulZ View Post
Lash the frame to the jack arms, or you might regret it later.

DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW THIS!
Ouch. Sounds painful. I will do this before I bolt anything else on :
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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam M. View Post
Congrats with your finished frame, what do you plan to do with wheels ?
Thanks Adam. Great question on the wheels. Iíve spoken to a mate who has a decent collection of 50s and 60s bikes (16 at last count!!) and he is passing me the details of a local wheel builder that he recommends highly. Plan is to take them down there and talk through options. I know the spokes and rims are toast, but Iím hoping something can be done with the hubs. Regardless, I need to get them properly inspected and measured, then go from there.

This part is going to be big bucks regardless, so currently pressing on with the fork rebuild (left one came apart completely in about 15 minutes this evening and no internal horror stories apart from the previously noted rusty stanchions and entirely expected brittle seals). The only bit that gave me any grief with was the interference fit washer above the seal, which took some persuading to pop free. New stanchions (old ones carefully measured for reference), seals, springs, gaiters, and oil (after some careful cleaning and painting of the sliders of course), and they should be good to go. Not too horrific cost-wise.
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