Daytona 1075 R - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Daytona Deliberations For owners and riders of Daytona 900, 955, 1000 & 1200

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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Daytona 1075 R

History

I decided to document the development and build of my ďspecialĒ as it progressed. Two reasons really as a record for friends and forum (s) users who've been more than helpful and as a way of seeking other input from triumph fans like myself. I don't profess to be expert writer nor do I come from a vehicle engineering background so what you'll see is an enthusiast working through the issues.

I posted the information on Triumph Torque and received useful feedback and help from members of that forum. Unfortunately it is no more but the members there can also be found on this Forum. So given the projects not yet finished and I still more to learn I thought Id post the history as well as updates as I progress with the final changes.




Phase 2 Current Activity Ė Pistons and Cam changes


The Pistons have arrived.

I finally ordered the forged pistons from DP https://www.dpengineparts.com/ go to box on the left and scroll down youíll find a Tiger piston which is the same as the Speed Triple R. They already had the design so it took all of four weeks to get them produced.
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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Liners are being bored at https://www.kmbengltd.com/ . They were given to me by another forum member as he wasnít using them!

I will report on the next phase as Iíve some questions on ignition timing!

Background




So my aim. Something a little bit different from the run of the mill that I can achieve rather than farming the work out. Some bits will need specialist help (dyno and welding come to mind) but the rest should be achievable easily if someone wants to copy.*

Inspiration. Three monkeys ( http://thekneeslider.com/six-monkees...ke-conversion/ ) started me off when they put a Daytona 675 fairing on the second gen 1050 s3 and the various forums discussing throttle bodies, big bores and cam shaft changes wet my appetite. Pure Triumph (https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocia...-1050r-on-sale) also showed what could be done with a standard S3

Hitting the age of 60 further pushed me to do my own thing when a try out of new bikes didn't really give anything much different than the 2002 Daytona or 2008 s3 I already had. My youngest son's comment of ďwhy don't you build something yourself, you'll be much more satisfiedĒ was final push. The the latest Speed Triple RS changed my mind a year later so the garage has now 2018 Speed Triple RS, 2002 Daytona 955i and this featured bike, a 2015 Speed III R

My Aims when I started

So it's going to be a 2015 Speed Triple R (for abs, suspension and ability to get into the ECU).
It's going to have 80mm bore (standard head gasket and will not thin out liners too much)
It will have specialist rods (so I can up rev limit without fear of failure), though knowledge that the new RS now uses the same rods for the rev limit I intend to set has changed this aim.
It will have throttle bodies matched to port
It will have higher lift cam's with longer duration (though no specialist grinds)
It will have Daytona 675 fairing modified to fit.

So in essence a compilation of my two existing bikes, brought up to date.

Technical deliberations (work in progress?)

I've listed below my original thoughts on the key aspects of the technical build. They all overlap and impact on each other. This is the point where other forum members can input as my knowledge and understanding is limited. Iím already indebted to a number of forum members who have provided me with input and reading material. Always happy to receive more!

Fuelling and ignition

I plan to use the latest ECU on the 2015 S3 enabling me to retain the link to the ABS system rather than use the older Segram 955i version. Ill start with the 20524 hex map which has ignition and fuelling cell up to 9700rpm with rev limit of 9900rpm. Alain from TuneECU has already provided me with a revised map that will allow rev limit of 11000rpm but at the moment I am unclear on what will happen between the the 9700rpm cell line and the rev limit. Iím assuming either there will be s straight line or exponential change in fuel and ignition (I know from the forums the rev limit of 9900rpm has been used so something must happen!). I determined that once I understood the rev limit of the rods and piston I could then plug the space above 9700rpm with something like a power commander. Ive not run the bike above the 9900 set RPM as Ill only do this when I install the forged piston.

Air and exhaust flow

Iím not planning to make any changed to the air box apart from K and N filter (I've used them since Mini Cooper days in 70s/80s). The air duct on the Daytona 675 fairing will get plumbed into the S3 frame inlet. I'm not planning to change trumpets but the throttle bodies and head have received some work which Iíve shown. My original plan to retaining the twin Arrow exhaust the bike came and a 955i header in place of the standard exhaust was changed when Triumph did an end to run sale. So its a low boy which will cope with the resulting power. Reasoning is I should end up with slightly more power than the 955i/Speed IIIRS

Rods and pistons

In going for the increased bore Ill use forged piston, which enable me to raise rev limit. The existing s3 rods appear to be the same from the part numbers as the 955i examples. Subsequently to starting the project I discovered the rods were again used in the RS and mentioned before so Ill stay with those for this engine build.


Camshafts and timing

This is probably the most interesting bit and most complex.

I could simply fit the 955i valve gear and cams but I don't do this right away as I felt they wouldnyt give me the type of road response I'm after. So I went down down the route of 955i exhaust cam onto the 1050 head in the inlet cam position with its inlet cam going to exhaust cam position ( http://www.thespeedtriple.com/forum/...cams-s3-4.html). Having run the bike for a year now, and from forum feedback, particularly Sussurf I'm going down the 955i Cams when I pull the engine apart (timed at 105/105) - more later.
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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Current state.


I acquired the R as insurance write off as I concluded this was best use of available fund. Auction pictures below.



I wasn't sure how damaged it was but from photos it looked as though new front end was required. It couldn't be started as battery was dead but I took a punt.

Having got it home and talked to the old owner (who let me have documentation and secondary set of keys) I couldn't see why it was written off. All I can conclude is that quote for repair from a triumph workshop was for everything new.

So what have did I find so far?

Yokes - need checking for alignment and lock stop replaced. Sent off to specialist Maidstone Motoliner
Light/Speedo bracket broken - not required. Bin
Winkers - need replacing. Bought
Scratch rear subframe and rear footrests - need touching up
Bent right footrest - being replaced with rear sets
Slight scratch to lights and fly screen extension - being replaced with fairing. Can be cleaned up and sold.
Small dents on tank - need sorting by specialist or filling
Slight scratch to radiator cowl - not needed and will be sold once cleaned up*
Slight scratch to belly pan - not needed I'll use on my s3
Frame need aligning Ė specialist in next village so simple fix
Engine runs, forks seem fine, - all in all looks like good buy.

All the old bits that were damaged or I didnít want netted me £1200 from ebay. So result

Progress


Maidstone Motoliner did a good in realigning the yokes and repairing the lock stop. Apparently took two of them to bend lower yoke back to shape (see photo for view how far handlebars were out) . No fork damage though and once back in place alignment checks proved ok.

I also put in new pads (Triumph) front and rear and greased the rear suspension linkages (easiest triumph yet!)

I've used Renthal clip-ones which fit well, fun getting the cables need to fit as now there are tight turns.






Engine

The Carillo rods and 80mm pistons were ordered from Holeshot racing. This came to nothing as the parts were not supplied. I therefore postponed the engine strip for forged piston (while waiting to get my money back)

I resolved not to use both the cams from the 955i for the first stage. If you look at the power figure on the graph for my 955i its still chasing power as the rev limiter hits the max. Id get the cubic capacity differences but I'm still sacrificing torque against power and I will them start to be limited by crank strength, air-box and exhaust efficiency. To use the full 955i cams means you need to take the head off so so I decided to use the 955i exhaust cam as S3 inlet and the S3 inlet as exhaust timed at inlet 104 degrees ATDC and exhaust at 98 degrees BTDC (based on feedback from someone whoís already gone down this route).

Looking at a graph provided by SUSSURF going down this route seemed to provide torque while giving some increase in power. But of course it in theory will have the potential to rev higher.

For the second phase that Iím starting now I think my rev limit will be set at 10700rpm (will therefore kill at 11000rpm) which should protect my crank. I also need to think about valves springs as the 955i used slightly stronger double valve springs as they were designed to rev out at 11500rpm. So more thinking required for the my current engine build.


Exhaust

I did fit the 955i exhaust but needed to cut this at the first bend after the junction. Frame closer that the 955i. Fitting the twin arrow exhaust (which I donít want to butcher) meant some more cutting and bending is required. A lot tighter than I was hoping.





But Triumph Discount Sale came to the rescue and its now a full Low Boy
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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Fairing

Main task was to shape the inlet cowl from the 675 (ebay) so it fits inside the existing frame aperture. Size is ok but it need to fit further in so it needed some grinding of the plastic case so it aligns with the Chinese ABS fairing I acquired. Iíve trimmed down the air inlet snorkel so I can use the existing top mounting bolts embodied in the glass reinforced plastic (which cannot be welded without a laser???). This sets the angle for where the nose cone will fit , and therefore the position of the fairing. Made up some simple thin steel bracket to help with initial fit. I worked on right fairing first as this seems to need little modification.

I tried cutting the mounting points and heat welding them into a new position but the plastic didnít bind. Id read this type of plastic could be laser welded. Its not the same as abs welding so It may be hard to do with heat gun which seemed to cook the plastic when it got it to run, or Iím just incompetent (more likely).

Anyhow I'm now progressed with metal box extension to the frame which can be bolted in, with this bonded to the plastic snorkel and then the whole lot carbon fibre wrapped.

I used a photo of Pure Triumph example which is helpful on position.

After creating the shape with aluminium framework and used body filler to smooth in the sides and then wrapped with Carbon Weave. Not ideal but I think it will do its job without looking too home made. You can just about bolt it up from the air box area. Its a faff but interestingly seems to work (see photo) I havenít plugged the hole above the airbox- not sure on impact on the intake as ram air effect could be zero but its the with way Triumph have set it up. May play with this intake route and battery position later.
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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Cam Changes

Cam changes for the current standard engine size have followed on from the background reading (thanks to Australia forum members). If I'd had Sprint cam then this may have been a slightly better way to go but given my bike was S3 and id acquired the 955i cams some time ago I went for 955i exhaust in the inlet position timed at 104 degrees ATDC and the S3 inlet on exhaust at 98 degrees BTDC (id been recommended 96 as possible better option but given the fun I had timing the cams in (you guessed it the allen nuts on the variable sprockets are in the wrong position) when I got it to 98 I left it there.



Some advice to anyone whoís not done this before (as I hadnít). Line up the rough new position of the cam against the sprocket by aligning on the bench (count part sprockets teeth Ė see photo) and leave the shims out while you actually do the dailing in on the bike. Youíve got an extra 2.5 mm tolerance of lift to play with if you get the timing slightly off. Saves bending valves. And there is not much space in that engine bay.

Shims then back in and then check the clearance with the cams in their new position.
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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Throttle bodies

I decided to repeat the work I'd completed on the 955i and detailed elsewhere on the forum (I tried to find link but couldnít)

thought Id add some photos on how its done for the later S3. At this stage the head was not coming off but I was pleased to see that triumph had been reading these forums as the inlet has already been cleaned up!!

These newer throttle bodies have already had the shafts thinned and the screws appear smaller (though this may just be my memory). The casting though had less to grind off on both sides of the butterflies. Make sure you remove the idle air control valve (you will need impact driver) as when you reinstall the brass butterflies you need to check they seat properly in the orifice (ie they need to rest on the stop see photo) Check each ONE. I didnít on the 955 and in ran rather fast at idle till id repositioned!!

The screws are stainless so you do need to drill/countersink the rear to remove the expanded screw. Then use mole on the screw to break the grip. If you do butcher a screw and cannot get out countersink it from each side and the drill from each side (see photo), it will unwind itself.

Reassemble with the new ProBolt screws but you'll need to cut then to size and then thread lock.
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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Cam timing

Just in case user to the forum are unsure of timing Ė some numbers from the manuals


Speed Triple

Inlet

opens 9.25 deg BTDC
closes 39.25 deg ABDC
Duration therefore 228.5 deg
valve lift 8.75 mm

Max lift is therefore at 105 deg ATDC


Exhaust


opens 31 deg BBDC
closes 1deg ATDC
Duration therefore 212 deg
valve lift 7.45mm

Max lift is therefore at 105 deg BTDC


Daytona 955i


Inlet

opens 25deg BTDC
closes 53 deg ABDC
Duration therefore 258 deg
valve lift 10.15 mm

Max lift is therefore at 104 deg ATDC


Exhaust


opens 39.5 deg BBDC
closes 29 deg ATDC
Duration therefore 248.5 deg (note triumph state 249 deg duration)
valve lift 9.65mm

Max lift is therefore at 95.25 (or 95.5 from triumph's duration) deg BTDC



So my use of Inlet 104 deg ATDC and Exhaust 96 deg BTDC is very close to Triumphs own and given lifts should be well with tolerances. Hope the numbers explain my logic.

Arguably with the lift and duration the Exhaust may well have been better somewhere between the 96 Ė and 105 BTDC. But from data Iíve seen across forums and other members 96 on the exhaust gives maximum horsepower without loosing the torque. Which is what I found with the standard engine from the fuel maps where it needed to be added.



Interesting the latest debate Ive had was after I found the numbers for the

Speed Triple RS

Inlet

opens 12.5 deg BTDC
closes 42.5 deg ABDC
Duration therefore 235 deg
valve lift 9.8 mm

Max lift is therefore at 105 deg ATDC


Exhaust


opens 46.5 deg BBDC
closes 10 .5 deg ATDC
Duration therefore 237 deg
valve lift 9.8 mm

Max lift is therefore at 108 deg BTDC

This sparked a debate which gave me the option of 955i cams at 105/015 or two 955i ilnlet cams at 106/109. So Ive still to decide (not inlet cam will double valve springs but single spring in S3 is slightly stronger that the 955i so can be used with the exhaust cam)




Frame


When I finally got round to getting the frame off for checking I found it was out by 5mm (my measure using two bits of string). Got it over to Elliottís Motorcycles in Cricklade who measured about 4mm. Took a morning to correct (see before and after photos) but Ben there did a great job. You'd never know he's used a variety of hydrolic rams on the frame.




Rearsets

I got given a set of rearsets (off who knows what) by an eBayer who sold me the front air intake. So with some modifications I've made them work. There are few options available commercially but I thought Id give these a try first.

Throttle cable

I've made up an extended cable using a Daytona 955i outer. I needed to shorten the throttle end so fit under the air box and then rethread. So new inner cable was required. With it being stainless cable I opted to getting one made up.
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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Fuelling

I decided to use a combination of TUNE ECU and Rapid Bike.

I've already got a copy of the triumph tune for the S3 with the potential to raise the rev limit once I go down the forged pistons and specialist rods. However with this arrangement the ECU has no fuelling or ignition parameters that can be changed from 9700rpm. So if there is a signal above 9700 rpm I've no control. I've seen some examples where there are *claims that a power commander has been used for fuelling but nothing has been stated re ignition. So by using rapid bike race module now it gives me the potential after at alter stage, if there is a signal, to can gain some control. I did get the supplier to remove the rev limit control on their module so I can get the benefit later should I choose to. The team at Performance Parts who are the importers couldn't have been more helpful.

I also liked the idea of the self adapt over the whole engine range (over the f - l change point). My plan is to monitor the Rapid Bike self adapt changes (it only allows small changes which need to be saved as a base map) and then modify the Triumph map via Tune ECU.

Once I've a base setting ie zero changes on self adapt, all modification in Tune ECU I can then try other changes and see what this produces. As you are always chasing the ideal fuel air ratio is almost like having your own Dyno on tap (though modification do take longer!)

Other benefits with this approach is that I can plug in Rapid Bike options later (quick shifter, speed limiter, traction control). Plus if anyone wants the modified map for just the cam change it's going to be available.

So that was the theory.

Installation of the wiring took about an hour with no real issues (though I did note I had some extra electrical adaptors so the wiring harness looks as though it would work for 955 as well as 1050 engines).



Approach to fuelling changes

Opening up the Rapid module and loading the triumph tune for the model gives me preset changes for the standard model.

Doing a comparison of the RB Race preset ignition with the Triumph Tunes for the S3R in standard and low boy tunes there appears to be no pattern based on the on the differences between the two factory tunes. I therefore opted at the start to run with a base map of zero ignition modifications in rapid bike. My plan was once I've optimised fuelling to then play with timings (following the same logic you would with Dyno)

The Rapid Bike injection base removes fuel in many of the lower rev ranges. Given the changes in the cam profiles I'm again electing to go for zeroed base map. The adaption cycle will be critical.

I plan to build a map based on the 20524 triumph tune, I therefore require to align the columns and rows to best fit.

As installed the map structure is 40 rows with 8 columns (note the cells are designed to work over a range which is slightly different to the triumph tune (so there will always be some extrapolation required using an updated spread sheet from http://www.triumphtorque.com/kb/tech.../1-Tuning.aspx) which is different to the Triumph tune . I opted to go with 35 rows and nine columns.

The rows are automatically defined by my set limit of 10500 (for post install rods pistons) so Ill go for fuelling up to 10300 revs. Column alignment for TP % will initially be at 0, 5,15,25,35,45,55,65 and 75. This will give me mid points of 2.5,10,20,30,40,50, 60,70, and 88% - at least some alignment with Triumph tunes!!

My initial plan was to use this initial configuration with the My Tune wide band sensor module install. I should get faster response to the self adapting. Its intended to run WITH the existing OEM lambda installed which has smaller diameter anyhow. So a friend has welded me a new boss in the exhaust pipe for the wideband sensor. I did find I needed to turn off the FL switching as this was confusing the lower reading. But that easy to do with Tune ECU

Current State

The bike has been on the road for a year and Iíve run a series of Rapid Bike fuel maps, modified the Triumph Tune and then rerun Rapid Bike with different parameters. Iíve shown photos of a couple of these iterations.
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freck and Roasted like this.
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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-17-2019, 04:58 PM
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This is going to be a blast!!!!
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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 04-18-2019, 04:56 PM
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Amazing work Rob, saw some of your write ups on TT. Iím completely in awe of your skills. I bet sheís a beast!
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