Points Backing plate eccentric screw replacement - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Classic, Vintage & Veteran For Coventry and Meriden Models. Anything pre-Hinckley goes.

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-13-2019, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1971 Triumph TR6R 650cc
New Member
 
Orbweaver88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 29
See Attached Pics
1971 Tiger TR6R 650
Points plate backing plate eccentric screws were barely usable, mostly rounded off and soft. There are brass eccentric replacement screws online however im not sure if they are only for the secondary adjustment plates or work for both the secondary and primary backing plate. As said before I need to replace the primary backing plate eccentrics & for $4 might as well replace them all. And yes, I still run points... ANY comments would be appreciated unless they are about the P.O.'s use of electrical tape 😄

Backstory, bike was purchased in very rough shape at a bikeshop in Los Angeles and xported to San Diego, bike was timed and diagnosed, as soon as it ran I noticed lots of white smoke on left pipe, tore down the top end and found .060 worth of gouges in the bore. Barrels and head are currently at a machine shop with new .060 over pistons.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	15709885626946605951535841970379_1570988578328.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	1.49 MB
ID:	658484  
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Orbweaver88; 10-13-2019 at 03:14 PM.
Orbweaver88 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-13-2019, 06:03 PM
wol
Moto Grand Prix
Main Motorcycle: T140 "special"
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Carmarthen UK
Posts: 2,584
Other Motorcycle: 1970 T120R Project
Extra Motorcycle: yes please
on the pictured points plate the eccentric adjusters are used on both the primary and secondary plates -- obviously previous owners butchered them when they didnt loosen the clamping screws first ( very common to see them in that state) ---
wol is offline  
post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-13-2019, 08:28 PM
Site Supporter
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: 1972 Triumph Tiger 650
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: southeastern United States
Posts: 1,212
Other Motorcycle: Honda VT750C Aero Shadow
Replacement eccentric screws can be easily had in your area of the world. Me, I simply replaced that 20th century old style ignition with a TriSpark and never looked back. Set it and forget it imho!

Owner Very Early 1972 Triumph Tiger 650 TR6R OIF
tjkoko is offline  
 
post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-13-2019, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1971 Triumph TR6R 650cc
New Member
 
Orbweaver88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 29
Thanks so im deducting from what has been said is that YES, the eccentric screws (brass) can be used on both the secondary and primary plates
Orbweaver88 is offline  
post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-14-2019, 12:52 AM
Moto Grand Prix
Main Motorcycle: 1973 Triumph TR7RV
Senior Member
 
TR7RVMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA USA
Posts: 2,763
Other Motorcycle: 1964 Triumph Mountain Cub
Hi Orbweaver88, Just had a points plate apart the other day. I think the original eccentric screw on these later plates were zinc?? & quite weak.

Take it all apart & check for burrs etc. on the backing plate slots & edges of the sub plates. You'll see how the sub plates have "pins" that locate in the curved slots. I put a very thin smear of grease on back of sub plate & pins so they can slide more easily.

I'd replace all the other screws that have damage to slots also.

Brass replacement eccentrics would be better than the soft zinc. Put a small smear of grease on both parts of the eccentric as it really reduces damage by allowing the plate to slide smoothly.

I have a dedicated screw driver set with perfect tips that I just use with points plates as the screws take damage easily. I also recommend putting a tiny dab of grease on screw threads as it allows them to be moved easily, yet they will not back off once fully tightened. I've been doing the grease on threads for 40 years & never had a problem, but it really keeps threads from galling & moving smoothly so it's easier to back them off just the right amount to move eccentric without damage.

I like points. Well serviced they are very, very reliable & allow starting with a dead battery. Poorly serviced they will give problems. The big advantage of Boyer or the like is the advance curve is full advance at 3500 instead of 2000 rpm. You can modify springs on AAU to give a higher RPM for full advance. This tends to dramatically reduce pining with modern fuel.
Don
KADUTZ likes this.
TR7RVMan is offline  
post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-14-2019, 02:35 AM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1971 Triumph TR6R 650cc
New Member
 
Orbweaver88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 29
Don, that makes sense to use grease on the threads either way it cant hurt.. This particular points plate could use some revamping by installed new secondary plates as these plastic followers are actually visibly worn from lack of lubrication on the AAU cam and swabs on the plate. Its cool to know some people still appreciate points especially considering like you said about ability to start the bike without battery voltage which had not crossed my mind. Do you know anything about condensers in relation to their ability to stand the test of time. the coils points condenser are all factory fresh circa '71 haha; the bike ran on 1 or 2 kicks before tear down and my humble philosophy is if it isn't broken why replace it. If anything my concern would be the condensers might not be very effective.
Orbweaver88 is offline  
post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-14-2019, 02:14 PM
Moto Grand Prix
Main Motorcycle: 1973 Triumph TR7RV
Senior Member
 
TR7RVMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA USA
Posts: 2,763
Other Motorcycle: 1964 Triumph Mountain Cub
Hi Orbweaver88, I don't know the service life of condenser. On my bike I'm still using ones I installed in 1976 6k miles or so. Same with points. Bike has 31600 miles on it now. Was in storage 34 years. They are still working ok. I get no undue burning of contact faces.

We always changed points & condensers as a set. But it was probably not needed. Running you'll see some sparking at points. Bad condenser allows too much sparking & points burning. If condenser is shorted to ground, you'll have no spark. How much sparking is too much? I really don't know. I've never pulled wire off condenser to compare. So if bike starts & runs you could leave old ones for now.

Lack of lube on rubbing block is #1 cause of points loss of spark by far. On short trips lube not so important as the rubbing block doesn't get that hot. On long rides the rubbing block over heats & wears quickly or melts unless well lubed. The felt blocks certainly help, but they really are not adequate at all. We do many rides where we ride 8 hrs solid with only fuel & restroom breaks. Maybe a very brief lunch stop side of road. This ride will wear poorly lubed rubbing block & it's not uncommon to see that until owner learns about points lube.

In the photo of points plate posted you see a 3 pointed oval logo on points. That is DAIICHI Japan. They make points & condensers for our bikes. Real original Lucas are no longer made. The Lucas you see sold are actually made by Daiichi. It has been said they actually made points branded Lucas back in the day, or Triumph installed Daiichi at factory. I have no idea if true or not.

The fit of Daiichi may not be as perfect as NOS Lucas, but I've used them on a few bikes & had good results. The key is lubing rubbing block of points & good enough surface on points cam, meaning not deeply grooved or rough that will sand rubbing block off. Generally grooving is caused from lack of lube at some point. The old fiber rubbing blocks would groove cams much more quickly if not well lubed.

If your cam is grooved polishing with 400 emory, finishing off with 800 or grey 3M emery pad would be advised. If too bad a replacement is needed. MARK EVERYTHING FIRST SO IT GOES TOGETHER SAME WAY! Take AAU apart & look at the slots in fly weights. The tend to wear flat spots with a sharp edge. This gives a notching effect on timing & can cause erratic running at slower speeds just off idle like in a parking lot or at red light if idle is slightly fast as it often needs to be. Polish these with 400 laid on a small file or strip of metal. You'll notice play in weight springs. Or almost play, feeling very weak. This is normal from new. However I find if you shorten spring a little about 1/2 the loop of one end of spring it makes bike run better. New springs from eBay are a crap shoot. Some heavy duty ones Triumph recommended are actually worse. I'm still working on how much to shorten springs to get full advance at 3500. Old posts by Mr. Pete are a good guide to start with if you want to persue better running. But get bike going for now.

In the photo of my points lube I'm using green Mallory cam lube. That is no longer made. Now I recommend Lubricam SL-2 cam lube. Easy to get on eBay. Few auto parts stores sell it. Put only 2 drops motor oil on felt blocks.

On as aside, if you have oil leaking into points cavity it tends to cause more burning of points. However even mildly oily points will often give enough spark for motor to run. Water/moisture on other hand will kill spark very quickly. Even riding in fog can cause lack of spark if it works it's way into points. In my mind the correct wire sleeve seal # 70-4707. It is tapered rubber sleeve pushed in from right side into timing cover. However.... if points plate is installed, you can split sleeve lengthwise & put in bore from left side putting sleeve in motor casting. I use a thin smear of silicon sealant with splitting & installing from left. Water thrown from front wheel or fog loves to follow wire into points.

Here's photo of my points. Notice my eccentric screws are not too good. I did that before I got smarter.
Don
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2343.JPG
Views:	13
Size:	2.20 MB
ID:	658552  
TR7RVMan is offline  
post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-14-2019, 06:20 PM
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: T120RT
Senior Member
 
KADUTZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: in my house
Posts: 5,050
Other Motorcycle: T140V,T140D,T140E,T140J
Gentlemen,


Regarding a few questions/point discussed (no pun intended).


Distributor Cam Lube; Pat Owens, West Coast Service Manager for Triumph, recommended the Harley Dist. Cam Lube above all others. No problem with what Don is recommending it is available at my local OReiley's Auto for 6.99 a tube.


Asa far as the Daiichi points and condensers were they the OEM manufacturer for LUCAS? I don't know they could have been. When Lucas went to the orange/white boxes from the red/black boxes the point of manufacture was all over the world. Once we got a load of pattern LUCAS turn signals in that were an exact copy from the wire to the logos and trademarks embossed in the head. Everybody outsources and have for years. Back to the Daiichi question. I would only use the original LUCAS, LUCAS-Daiichi (current LUCAS products) or Daiichi (black and maroon box) products in my machines. At the shop I worked at we usually didn't change the condensers on the OIF bikes for two reasons. (1) Labor time to change them and (2) we got enough defective new ones the decision was made if the unit was good not to mess with it.

Points vs Electronic Ignition. My preference is points. My 70 has points and a 2MC capacitor with a battery while my 78 is points and battery. Either can be started & ridden without a battery in series should it go flat. Not possible on my 79's with the factory E.I.. Should I have an AA advance unit go bad I would consider using an aftermarket E.I. due to cost factors. I have installed them in bikes and recommended them to guys who are building baskets. Also I have seen more bad black boxes in the aftermarket than I have seen contacts falling of a set of points. Many guys out here have problems with either style ignition and other items as they do not understand certain operating principles of this 40 plus year old machinery.


A lot of this boils down to personal taste and abilities. There is no best


K

TRIUMPH
"THE WORLDS PRE-EMINENT MOTORCYCLE"

Last edited by KADUTZ; 10-14-2019 at 07:56 PM.
KADUTZ is online now  
post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-14-2019, 11:39 PM
Moto Grand Prix
Main Motorcycle: 1973 Triumph TR7RV
Senior Member
 
TR7RVMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA USA
Posts: 2,763
Other Motorcycle: 1964 Triumph Mountain Cub
Hi KADUTZ, Thank you for the very informative info on points & condensers! Most interesting.

Does Harley still make points cam lube?

I was Harley tech at HD of Oakland 1970-71. The points lube was indeed excellent, as was the HD Chain Saver chain lube.

When I got my bike out of storage I ordered a new can of Chain Saver, thinking it would give good chain life. Not even close to being the same. Was very thin & smelled of Kerosene. I used it a few months. Flew off instantly. Chain wore quickly. Gets better... 20 miles in the rain, the next morning chain was solid rust! I just started using GL5 differential oil. Has worked quite well, no rust, but of course messy as the old Chain Saver was.

I hope the points cam lube is better.
Don
TR7RVMan is offline  
post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-15-2019, 01:47 AM
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: T120RT
Senior Member
 
KADUTZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: in my house
Posts: 5,050
Other Motorcycle: T140V,T140D,T140E,T140J
Don I usually used PJ1 chain lube. Never had a problem with it washing off. GL5 has to make a mess.

Is Hardly still making cam lube? I don't know bought a couple of tubes a long time ago. Still have some a tube lasts a while. Might call tomorrow out of curiosity.

K

TRIUMPH
"THE WORLDS PRE-EMINENT MOTORCYCLE"
KADUTZ is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options
All posts must adhere to Forum Rules

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome