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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-29-2019, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Reinstating Indicators

Evening all,

Just lying here, planning activities for the afternoon I have spare this weekend...

I will be stripping and checking the clutch so I can respond to Don and hopefully resolve my slippage (updated clutch recommendations thread) and whilst the engine cover is off I will fire up my lathe and create a larger spacer to get the alternator rotor central in the stator (alternator rotor position thread) and of course make / set a shorter timing pointer that doesn't hit the rotor.

I reckon I will have some spare time so I would like to investigate what is required to reinstate my indicators, removed by the PO. I need your help on the following please (1979 T140e):

1. Indicator switch: This has only a little "feel" to it. I.e. there is only a slight centre detent. I assume that I can strip the switch and address this (as long as all the internals are there) and whilst in there, clean up the contacts. Any tips please?

2. Flasher relay. Damned if I can find it or any sign of a mounting point. Where should it be on my bike and, assuming it has all been removed) what mounts and relay options should I consider please?

3. Wiring. Indicator looms appear to have been removed completely. I can find some suitable wire to temporarily address this from an old car loom (new loom will be part of the winter full restoration). In the workshop I happen to still have the old loom from a 1950s Triumph roadster I recently restored and they use the same coloured wires for indicator circuits 🙂. Where do the indicator loom spurs normally join the main loom please?

4. Indicators: Are there good quality Lucas or Lucas copy indicators out there? Any recommendations please? If not I do have the originals but they are in pretty poor condition. I could try and improve them and then send them off for rechroming but last time I checked with my Chrome guy, his waiting list was months long....

Cheers,
Ian
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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-29-2019, 11:12 PM
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Flasher relay was mounted in a few places, the last few models had them on the underside of the coil tinware on the primary side.

They where a round little tub mounted on a spring and clip that was supposed to help with vibration - have a look in your parts book or manual, or look online.

I didn't bother with any of that setup, time has moved on since the '70's.

I used this for a flasher unit:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Pin-12...item2f32f8dd4c

and for blinkers I bought similar to these:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-Bulle...MAAOSwfIlc64ft

tridentt150v,
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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
Evening all,

1. Indicator switch: This has only a little "feel" to it. I.e. there is only a slight centre detent. I assume that I can strip the switch and address this (as long as all the internals are there) and whilst in there, clean up the contacts. Any tips please?

4. Indicators: Are there good quality Lucas or Lucas copy indicators out there? Any recommendations please? If not I do have the originals but they are in pretty poor condition. I could try and improve them and then send them off for rechroming but last time I checked with my Chrome guy, his waiting list was months long....
I've just restored a basket case '72 Daytona. It had no indicators with the piles of bits, but it did have the correct '72 Lucas console switches for the bars. The ones with the lever and 2 push buttons in an ali housing and which form the mounting for the brake and clutch levers. If yours are the same you can get repair kits - all the levers, buttons, springs and ball bearings. It's not an easy job but it's do-able. You can get at the contacts with some fine emery and I checked all the actions with a meter before re-assembly.

I bought the Lucas pattern indicators. They are OK, but I think the outer lamp housing is plastic - I didn't have the originals to compare. They only come with the lamp conductor, so I added an earth to each from the bulb holder and wired these into the earth circuit on the loom rather than relying on earthing through the frame.

I had the flasher unit holder and coil so used that and bought a new relay. It all works just fine.
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 06:20 AM
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Hi Ian,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
assume that I can strip the switch
However, 'fraid you might not be able to "address" the "slight" centering; regrettably, DPO only tend to discover how easily the parts escape when they strip the switch without The Seven P's, then discover the switch isn't anywhere similar to the earlier ones, as on Andy's bike, and no-one sells a repair kit for 'em (afaik). Then the indicators are removed because the switch neither locates positively on or off ...

If you haven't read the advice previously, dismantle and reassemble the switch inside a large clear plastic bag on a towel on a tray - bag to catch very small parts as they try to escape by flying, towel and tray to catch them as they try to escape by rolling, large so you can get hands and tools in, clear so you can see what you're doing from outside.

Having removed the switch lever and its mounting plate, you'll see a sliding white plastic cube that the lever moves. The cube pulls out of the switch casting with the bit of circuit board and the Green/Red, Green/White and Light Green/Brown wires beside it, because the cube is wrapped around the three wire contacts protruding from the circuit board.

BE AWARE:-

. Hidden in the other side of the plastic cube from the contacts are a tiny ball and spring, the spring is compressed so, when the cube is pulled out of the casting both ball and spring attempt escape by flying ...

. It's the ball 'n' spring that positively locate the switch on or off - there are three "V" in the switch casting, that the spring pushes the ball into to locate the plastic cube positively.

. The plastic cube also should enclose a a U-shaped brass contact that slides over the wire contacts to make the connections. The U-shaped contact should have two breaks part-way through it, they're often obscured by a mixture of grease and worn brass.

. When I reassemble, I usually ask swmbo or No.1 Daughter to fit the assembly of circuit board, plastic cube, contact, ball 'n' spring (the latter two stuck together with some Vaseline) back into the casting ... because they've both got longer nails ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
Flasher relay. Damned if I can find it or any sign of a mounting point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
round little tub mounted on a spring
While there are any number of cheap 2-terminal mechanical relays on Fleabay, '79 still used the oblong 8FL Lucas had supplied since indicators were first fitted.

Problem I find with the cheap relays is they flash according to the speed of the engine - accelerating down a motorway slip road, there's barely any discernible flash ...

I've done the rounds of the cheap relays and returned to Lucas, albeit to the more-robust 9FL, originally supplied to contemporary makers of other vehicles to work the indicators in 'hazard mode'. 9FL'll fit in the same bracket as the 8FL, it's just a little deeper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
Wiring. Indicator looms appear to have been removed completely.
Where do the indicator loom spurs normally join the main loom
Wires are normally part of the main harness, so likely a DPO 'hid' them simply by cutting off the protruding bits?

Under the seat, there should be:-

. White and Light Green/Brown wires to attach to the relay;

. Green/Red and Green/White wires to attach to the relevant rear indicators.

Inside the headlamp shell should be at least one each of Light Green/Brown, Green/Red and Green/White, to attach to the corresponding wires from the handlebar switch. If only one each of Green/Red and Green/White, originally each had a 4-way (two in each end) snap connector to connect corresponding rear indicator, handlebar switch wire, front indicator and one idiot lamp wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
Indicators: Are there good quality Lucas or Lucas copy indicators out there?
I do have the originals
send them off for rechroming but last time I checked with my Chrome guy, his waiting list was months long...
The lamp bodies are plastic, he can rechome that?

If you buy new, ime don't accept the pattern ones with round stem holes and corresponding stem ends. As you can see on your originals, they have oval holes and two flats on the 3/8"UNF stem thread. Reason is, if vibration loosens a round one's securing nut, the indicator body just rotates around the stem; oval one has to be pretty-much dismantled for that to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andytheflyer View Post
I added an earth to each from the bulb holder and wired these into the earth circuit on the loom
Essential when front indicators are mounted on painted and/or rubber-mounted headlamp brackets ...?

Fwiw, while my T160's Lucas indicators are blinged with clear lenses and orange bulbs ... I wanted something less visually-obtrusive on the T100. I bought what M&P used to call "Mini Stalk" indicators (my saved links to 'em don't work but I saw same on a T160 last Sunday). Ime, the indicators from M&P have a 10 mm. OD stem - so I filled the gap between each and the standard 7/16" mounting hole for Lucas with an O-ring for extra vibe isolation - and they have both supply and return wires fitted as standard.

Hth.

Regards,
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 07:08 AM
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If I was starting from where you are, I would probably go led

I replaced my Lucas originals with chrome bullet lights and wired them with aditional earth /return wires
That was over 30 years ago!

Be aware that the standard flasher (should be behind the primary side steel cover mounted on a spring) relies on the whole impedance of the 4 flasher lamps and idiot light. If you go led you need to get a flasher to match

Paul goff is normally at Kempton. He is outside the low white building that ace classics are normally in
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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 07:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
Flasher relay was mounted in a few places, the last few models had them on the underside of the coil tinware on the primary side.

They where a round little tub mounted on a spring and clip that was supposed to help with vibration - have a look in your parts book or manual, or look online.

I didn't bother with any of that setup, time has moved on since the '70's.

I used this for a flasher unit:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Pin-12...item2f32f8dd4c

and for blinkers I bought similar to these:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-Bulle...MAAOSwfIlc64ft
Thanks! Now that flasher unit is interesting as it can drive low-load LEDs. I want to retain originality as much as possible, but I had been looking at these:
https://www.alchemyparts.co.uk/4-x-i...-high-quality/
Whilst not original, they are period-lookinh and would add DRL front and additional tail lights....
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andytheflyer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
Evening all,

1. Indicator switch: This has only a little "feel" to it. I.e. there is only a slight centre detent. I assume that I can strip the switch and address this (as long as all the internals are there) and whilst in there, clean up the contacts. Any tips please?

4. Indicators: Are there good quality Lucas or Lucas copy indicators out there? Any recommendations please? If not I do have the originals but they are in pretty poor condition. I could try and improve them and then send them off for rechroming but last time I checked with my Chrome guy, his waiting list was months long....
I've just restored a basket case '72 Daytona. It had no indicators with the piles of bits, but it did have the correct '72 Lucas console switches for the bars. The ones with the lever and 2 push buttons in an ali housing and which form the mounting for the brake and clutch levers. If yours are the same you can get repair kits - all the levers, buttons, springs and ball bearings. It's not an easy job but it's do-able. You can get at the contacts with some fine emery and I checked all the actions with a meter before re-assembly.

I bought the Lucas pattern indicators. They are OK, but I think the outer lamp housing is plastic - I didn't have the originals to compare. They only come with the lamp conductor, so I added an earth to each from the bulb holder and wired these into the earth circuit on the loom rather than relying on earthing through the frame.

I had the flasher unit holder and coil so used that and bought a new relay. It all works just fine.
Thanks Andy,
My switchgear is the later black type with horn, indicators and headlight controls. Where did you get your repair kit from please? Maybe they do kits for the later bikes...
Cheers,
Ian
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Dave and Stuart. Really useful info.

Dave, as I am starting from scratch I may well go LED (see my post above) but I remain a little uncomfortable with non-standard looking parts. I have restored a lot of stuff over the years and originality is king! 🙂 However I believe "sensible" upgrades, e.g. safety items such as better braking and lighting, seatbelts, windscreen wash/wipe etc are acceptable, as long as you retain any original parts and keep them with the vehicle.

If only I could get those DRL LED indicators with long chrome stalks and opaque lenses...

Stuart, On the subject of originality and chrome; it was the shafts on my original indicators that need rechroming.They are rather pitted. Other than that they looked pretty good. I need to have a proper look at the light bodies but being plastic, there should be no pitting. However, I need to check for scratches and other damage as they have been stored loose, in one of the 2 large crates of spares that were collected by the PO over his 36y ownership.

Great info on the wiring and switch. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Ian
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-30-2019, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
While there are any number of cheap 2-terminal mechanical relays on Fleabay, '79 still used the oblong 8FL Lucas had supplied since indicators were first fitted.

Problem I find with the cheap relays is they flash according to the speed of the engine - accelerating down a motorway slip road, there's barely any discernible flash ...

I've done the rounds of the cheap relays and returned to Lucas, albeit to the more-robust 9FL, originally supplied to contemporary makers of other vehicles to work the indicators in 'hazard mode'. 9FL'll fit in the same bracket as the 8FL, it's just a little deeper.
No problems with the ones I have bought, and they are a 1/10th of the price of Lucas......not everything Lucas is the answer, never was, never will be.

tridentt150v,
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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Unread 08-31-2019, 04:46 AM
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Hi Ian,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
as I am starting from scratch
originality
LED 'bulbs' in the original bodies? Then ime a 'LED-able' relay (some are LED-specific, some'll do both LED and incandescent), rather than the 9FL and a resistor in each indicator wire. Some of those replacement relays will require a supply connection from your bike's Black wires to the relay itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
long chrome stalks
Always A Truly Monumentally Stupid Idea ...

They were an original requirement when Construction & Use specified a minimum 12" between the centreline of the vehicle and the centre of an indicator. Practically, '71/'72 rear indicators were perfectly-placed to catch riders' and pillions' legs when getting on and off the bike; if the bike ever fell over, the indicator and anything on the other end of the stem - '71/'72 rear lamp mounting, headlamp bracket and shell on several models - was trashed. But the stem in between was just fine ...

One of the many curious anomalies between C&U and MoT was the 12" requirement wasn't a check in the latter, so an owner could fit shorter indicator stems, only risking being pulled by a sharp-eyed Plod with the knowledge of C&U detail. If you fit more-sensible shorter stems at the front of your bike, these days, if you're unlucky enough to run into a specialist traffic Plod still retaining that detail who also had nothing better to do than book you, you'd refrain from doing the lottery 'til whatever deity was less-displeased with you ... Fwiw, in over forty years of using short stems on the fronts of my T160's, I've never met even a specialist traffic Plod that's even looked at 'em, but I've never won more than 10 on the lottery ...

Andy Molnar does stainless stems that he claims are sacrificial. However: I don't know anyone who's tested 'em; if they work, they're an expensive sacrifice; stainless beside chrome (indicator body) looks odd (stainless has a slight yellow hue).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
opaque lenses
IIrc, only required on the rear indicators by C&U. I haven't seen any new in decades. Most of the above applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
I need to have a proper look at the light bodies but being plastic, there should be no pitting.
The usual problem with the plastic bodies is the chrome crazes. Unless the aforementioned additional wire is threaded down the stem to the bulb holder, the chrome on the body forms part of the supply (on your bike) or return path between the bulb and the additional wire attached under the stem mounting nut on the grabrail or headlamp bracket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boggie View Post
repair kit
For the switches on Andy's bike (any '71/'72 BSA, '71-'74 Triumph or the right-hand cluster on '75-'78 Triumphs), it's sold by any dealer selling Wassell "Genuine Lucas" bits, under "169SA/D" ("169SA" is the original Lucas 'collective' part number for all versions of this particular switch cluster).

Your bike doesn't have 169SA switch clusters. However, zooming the images of 169SA/D here show a ball and small spring that might fit your bike's indicators switch if either or both original parts are missing.

Hth.

Regards,
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