Batteryless bobber wiring - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Batteryless bobber wiring

Hi all, I have a 1960 5ta that i built into a bobber. I installed electronic igntion and am running batteryless. Everything runs great except if the headlight is on it will die at idle. I can run it with taillight but if both lights are on it will die :/. Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on? How fast should idle be for batteryless? Thanks!
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 11:26 PM
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What sort of EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run, but is happier on +11 volts. I would suggest you opt for and LED headlight 'globe' and taillight. The draw goes from 50/70 watts to less than 5 or something like that [depends on your final setup etc]. Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts, this will drop to under 3 with an LED setup.

https://www.classicbritishspares.com...headlight+bulb

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 04:11 AM
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Either fit a battery, or put up with this nonsense.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 04:29 AM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmblrastafarian View Post
1960 5ta that i built into a bobber.
Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on?
Short answer: no.

Longer answer: if you do that, the idle will be so high, it'll be difficult to to get neutral at a stop, and you'll 'crash the gears' trying to get it back into gear to pull away; raising the idle is treating a symptom, not the cause; the cause is the alternator doesn't produce enough at idle to run even just the ignition on its own, never mind lights as well.

Does the bike have LED 'bulbs' in the lights; if not, as "tridentt150v" posted, their low current consumption compared to normal incandescent bulbs will lower the rpm where the alternator is spinning fast enough to generate enough to power both ignition and LED 'bulbs'.

What alternator is on the bike? 3-phase high-output will produce the most at low rpm.

But the bike's problem is trying to run it on public roads entirely batteryless, Simply unnecessary at the end of the second decade of the 21st century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run,
Not necessarily. While most Mk.4 will usually run 'normally' at lower Volts than Mk.3, any given figure isn't guaranteed. It's 12V electrics, not some imaginary figure somewhere below 12V.

Plus, again, it's trying to 'fix' the problem by 'treating' just one of its symptoms. The problem is the alternator doesn't produce enough Amps at tickover/idle to run both ignition and lights. That's why Triumph fitted a battery with DC electrics, to power the electrics when the alternator can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts,
You're thinking of an incandescent stop/brake lamp/filament, which consumes 21-23 Watts (~2 Amps). I suspect the OP doesn't ride around with the stop filament illuminated all the time (or, if he does, that's part of the bike's problem). Incandescent tail filaments consume 5-6 Watts (~0.5A).

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart

Last edited by StuartMac; 06-15-2019 at 05:29 AM.
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
What sort of EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run, but is happier on +11 volts. I would suggest you opt for and LED headlight 'globe' and taillight. The draw goes from 50/70 watts to less than 5 or something like that [depends on your final setup etc]. Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts, this will drop to under 3 with an LED setup.

https://www.classicbritishspares.com...headlight+bulb
Hi, I have a Pazon electronic ignition, led tail light and incandescent headlight. Can the headlight bulb be replace with led ?
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmblrastafarian View Post
1960 5ta that i built into a bobber.
Do i just turn the idle higher until it wont die with the lights on?
Short answer: no.

Longer answer: if you do that, the idle will be so high, it'll be difficult to to get neutral at a stop, and you'll 'crash the gears' trying to get it back into gear to pull away; raising the idle is treating a symptom, not the cause; the cause is the alternator doesn't produce enough at idle to run even just the ignition on its own, never mind lights as well.

Does the bike have LED 'bulbs' in the lights; if not, as "tridentt150v" posted, their low current consumption compared to normal incandescent bulbs will lower the rpm where the alternator is spinning fast enough to generate enough to power both ignition and LED 'bulbs'.

What alternator is on the bike? 3-phase high-output will produce the most at low rpm.

But the bike's problem is trying to run it on public roads entirely batteryless, Simply unnecessary at the end of the second decade of the 21st century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
EI? BB needs a minimum of around 10.5 volts to run,
Not necessarily. While most Mk.4 will usually run 'normally' at lower Volts than Mk.3, any given figure isn't guaranteed. It's 12V electrics, not some imaginary figure somewhere below 12V.

Plus, again, it's trying to 'fix' the problem by 'treating' just one of its symptoms. The problem is the alternator doesn't produce enough Amps at tickover/idle to run both ignition and lights. That's why Triumph fitted a battery with DC electrics, to power the electrics when the alternator can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tridentt150v View Post
Your tail light setup will draw up to 25 watts,
<img src="https://www.triumphrat.net/images/smilies/huh1.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Huh!" class="inlineimg" /> You're thinking of an incandescent stop/brake lamp/filament, which consumes 21-23 Watts (~2 Amps). I suspect the OP doesn't ride around with the stop filament illuminated all the time (or, if he does, that's part of the bike's problem). Incandescent tail filaments consume 5-6 Watts (~0.5A).

Hth.

Regards,
So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ? Led headlight ?
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 01:32 AM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmblrastafarian View Post
So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ?
Pictures of your bike would be useful.

As @Tritn Thrashr posted, fit a battery. Doesn't have to be an original-size one; certainly here in GB, the batteries fitted to domestic alarm systems are small (~5 Ah), sealed (can be fitted at any angle without leaking) and are replaced after a certain time (so can be had cheaply second-hand although they usually have several years' life in 'em).

Which alternator is fitted to the bike?

LED headlamp 'bulb' might help but bear in mind the ignition coil(s) draw ~3.5A over most of the engine's rpm range, including idle. Firstly here, what do you need the lights for? If it's only because the law says they have to be on in daylight, and you never ride at night where there aren't any streetlights, LED pilot lamp will be cheaper and just as effective - @rambo has previously suggested "Eagle Eye" LED available on Ebay, there are at least a couple that fit in a standard pilot bulb hole in the headlamp reflector.

If you do need to ride at night where there aren't any streetlamps, what headlamp bulb fitting does the bike have? Original BPF:-



... P43t:-



... or P45t:-



Regards,

Stuart
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 02:02 AM Thread Starter
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: 1960 triumph 5ta chopper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmblrastafarian View Post
So where do you recommend I start in fixing it ?
Pictures of your bike would be useful.

As @Tritn Thrashr posted, fit a battery. Doesn't have to be an original-size one; certainly here in GB, the batteries fitted to domestic alarm systems are small (~5 Ah), sealed (can be fitted at any angle without leaking) and are replaced after a certain time (so can be had cheaply second-hand although they usually have several years' life in 'em).

Which alternator is fitted to the bike?

LED headlamp 'bulb' might help but bear in mind the ignition coil(s) draw ~3.5A over most of the engine's rpm range, including idle. Firstly here, what do you need the lights for? If it's only because the law says they have to be on in daylight, and you never ride at night where there aren't any streetlights, LED pilot lamp will be cheaper and just as effective - @rambo has previously suggested "Eagle Eye" LED available on Ebay, there are at least a couple that fit in a standard pilot bulb hole in the headlamp reflector.

If you do need to ride at night where there aren't any streetlamps, what headlamp bulb fitting does the bike have? Original BPF:-



... P43t:-



... or P45t:-



Regards,
heres a shot of my bike. I’m only slightly hesitant to add a battery because I’ve already painted the bike and “finished” it. I do plan on riding at night so lights are necessary. I’m not sure wht alternator is in there ( 3 phase or not). Would a 3 phase help? And also I didn’t put a new rotor in (magnet) and heard this is the key to a good batteryless system. Would I want to try that? I appreciate all your help thank you!
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 03:04 AM
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Not to change the subject, but while I am not a chopper guy (my '97 HD FXDWG is as close as I get), your bike is about the sweetest, cleanest, most beautiful chopper I've ever seen! And one I could live with! The simplicity and white really knock it out of the park! There's even something in it that seems to say, "Pure Triumph" - at least to me!

I absolutely love it! I've never seen anything like it.

KUDOS on your build!





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Last edited by gatornapper; 06-16-2019 at 03:08 AM.
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 03:12 AM
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Ah, the picture definitely makes it pretty clear what level of minimalism you're going for.

I'm assuming that when you went for electronic ignition you also ditched the original charging control for something more "modern" like a podtronics unit? The DC power on the bike is probably a lot dirtier than you imagine. Incandescent lights and coil ignition don't care that much, but all these leds and the pazon sure do. I can't imagine not having any capacitive element (like a battery) to even things out. Gotta be somewhere you can hide a small battery on there.
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