Is it a Triumph or is it a BSA? - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Is it a Triumph or is it a BSA?

Here's an odd question and a little thought provoking.

I have a 1968 Triumph TR25 W 250 that I'm turning into a Cafe Racer.

The TR25 was made by BSA and badged Triumph. It has a Triumph VIN on the frame.

I am putting a 1968 BSA 441 motor in the frame and it has a Norton gas tank.

There are virtually no Triumph parts but the VIN is Triumph.

Is it still a Triumph or do I have a BSA?

When someone says what kind of bike do I have, what do I say?

Do I have a Triumph? Do I have a BSA?

I think I know what I have, but I'm curious what you guys think?
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 08:08 PM
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Well an Oldsmobile with a Chevrolet engine was an Oldsmobile

An Avanti II with a GM engine (again Chebby) was an Avanti II

Checker used various engines from outside suppliers it was a Checker

1973 T65T BSA used a Triumph engine but it was a BSA

Triumph X75 Hurricane used BSA engine but was a Triumph


So if your paper say you have a Triumph you have a Triumph just hope you have a Bill of Sale for the BSA engine.


You can always call it a tribeezea.


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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 08:31 PM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcoastal View Post
1968 Triumph TR25 W 250
It has a Triumph VIN on the frame.
Uh-uh, it has a VIN on the frame, that happens to be with a Triumph model code. The number started at 101 for '68 and the same range was used for all 250 singles through to at least the end of '70, whether they then had a Triumph or BSA model code?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcoastal View Post
There are virtually no Triumph parts
Define "Triumph parts"? You could just as easily say a B25 doesn't have "BSA parts"? However, if the definition of whether a part was "Triumph" or "BSA" was whether it was used before 1968, for example the front hub and brake are very definitely "Triumph" and not "BSA". The late 1960's were when it began to be noticeable than BSA and Triumph were using more and more parts commonly across marques and ranges; I suspect they started with the 250's because, if production costs could be cut substantially, BSA were more likely to show a profit on them?

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 01:18 AM
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Hi, Hmmm.... Maybe they did it to save production costs over the Tiger Cub???

When I was in High School I wanted a Cub in the worst way. The dealer refused to sell them to teenagers because they didn't hold up. He wanted to sell us kids Honda 90s, 160s or 305s. Ended up with Honda 90.

Triumph 250s came out. They seemed even cooler than a Cub & had a bigger motor. After graduation I wanted to move up. Dealer wouldn't sell 250 to me. Said they were worse than Cubs! Ended up getting Honda 305. The 305 was a great bike!

A few years went by. I wanted to buy a new Triumph. Dealer wanted to sell me Honda 750. I wanted the Tiger 750 I still have & ride. Dealer thought I was nuts but since I was old enough to know better he sold it to me anyway. Never regretted this purchase. I finally got the Cub too. It's being restored over 35 years now. Dealer was right on all accounts but Triumphs just make you happy when you ride them.

Not sure why but dealer didn't like Triumph 500s. He only wanted to sell 650s. He called them 40 inchers. Honda 750 hadn't come yet then.
Don
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 02:31 AM
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Looking for a name to call it,i named my BSA as Didden.You could of course call it Nigel,Mary,Sid or Susan though.

Now,where did that bit fall off ?
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 04:20 AM
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The venerable title in the UK is: Tribsa.

They were all BSA's is one way of looking at it. Or another, is that nothing is Triumph unless it was made at Meriden. Paint Triumph on the tank if you want to maximise resale value.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug748 View Post
Or another, is that nothing is Triumph unless it was made at Meriden. Paint Triumph on the tank if you want to maximise resale value.
Did you mean to say Coventry? Those Meriden bikes were Turner/Page Ariels with Triumph on the tank

Norton twins were the same, just Ariel man Val Page moved them on from those old singles eh
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 03:25 PM
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Hi,

Tch, where's a :suckteeth: icon when you need one ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug748 View Post
nothing is Triumph unless it was made at Meriden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul49 View Post
Did you mean to say Coventry? Those Meriden bikes were Turner/Page Ariels with Triumph on the tank
Uh-uh, while the singles made at Triumph's Coventry works were designed by Val Page for the original 'Bettmann Triumph' company, and the 6/1 650 twin was a joint Page/Turner design for the same company, Turner dropped the 6/1 as soon as he was put in overall charge of 'Sangster Triumph' (Triumph Engineering Co.) and none of the singles was produced after that works was destroyed in the 14th/15th November 1940 Coventry blitz.

The only Triumph design to survive - because Triumph employees were able to collect the copies of drawings at outside suppliers - was Turner's Speed Twin/Tiger 100. And, while that was influenced by the Ariel Square Four, that too was a Turner-only design. The other well-known Speed Twin influence is the top end of the Riley Nine car engine; again, nothing to do with Val Page.

Meriden was built to replace Triumph's Coventry works, and demolished after the Co-op finally collapsed. So no motorcycle engine except Turner's Speed Twin/Tiger 100 and its direct descendants was ever built there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul49 View Post
Norton twins were the same, just Ariel man Val Page moved them on from those old singles
Val Page never worked for Norton. Leaving 'Bettmann Triumph' when that company ceased motorcycle production, he moved to BSA, taking charge of Ariel when the Sangster family sold it to BSA in 1944. Ironically, he ended up working for Turner when the latter moved to BSA when the Sangster family sold Triumph to the BSA Group in 1951. BSA put Turner in charge of the whole Automotive Division, which then included the BSA motorcycles and cars, Triumph, Ariel, Sunbeam, Daimler cars, Carbodies (a coachbuilder most famous for making the London 'black taxi' from after WW2 'til only a few years ago) and several other vehicle-related companies.

Otoh, the first successful Norton twin engine was designed by Bert Hopwood, who would later take over from Turner in charge of BSA's (now smaller) Automotive Division when Turner retired in 1964.

Hth.

Regards,

Stuart
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 03:33 PM
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Tiger Cubs and terriers were built at Meriden
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartMac View Post
Hi,
Val Page never worked for Norton.
Regards,
Well done that man. You spotted the deliberate mistake, t'wer Bert Hopwood who sorted the Norton twins.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=be...w=1366&bih=635
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