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T120sr

28K views 103 replies 18 participants last post by  Desmo851 
#1 ·
If there is anyone here who has a T120SR I can tell you that no such model was ever produced.
The SR was added by Johnson Motors in Pasadena so people would think it was a special model. Edward Turner was furious with Bill Johnson over it.

Jewel
 
#4 ·
Roy, I was waiting for you to back me up on this.!!! One of the gentlemen on the Bonneville Owners Club site mentioned that he had a T120SR, so Martin asked JR Nelson about the SR and he said it was done by Johnson Motors to shift models as special - before the UK trades description act and similar in USA. So far everyone who has one of these SR models has bought it from Johnson Motors.
You might be able to clarify this further if you speak to JR.

Jewel
 
#5 ·
Well, I think this has become a little lost in the translation. I initially asked JRN and Harry Woolridge if they knew of a FACTORY Bonneville designated T120SR. The answer from both was catagorically NO! By the time these bikes were built, December 1964, Edward Turner had all ready retired.

The guy on the Bonneville forum has been given the record for his bike and it quite clearly states T120R, nothing more.

JRN also says that whatever Tricor or Jomo did before selling the bikes was nothing to do with the factory, however, the factory would want a slice of the profit from the sale.......

What does concern me is this, if Jomo had made a 'special' and designated it T120SR how did they stamp the 'S' between T120 & R without grinding off the R and then re stamping SR? In my book and also the law in this country, that is altering the engine number for gain. Fraud is against the law here, I believe it is the same in America?
Roy.
 
#6 ·
Well Roy, it seems I have been given some bum information so I will stand corrected and withdraw my statement. I apologise if I have upset anyone with my comment about the SR but I should know that you shouldn't always believe what you hear. I have often wondered about the SR and when I was told the story I thought it would be interesting to share.

Jewel :(
 
#8 ·
I worked at a large Southern California Triumph dealer from the mid '60s > early 70's and uncrated/assembled every Triumph we received from JoMo and recorded the serial numbers for our inventory records - and I never saw a T120SR:confused:

Dick
 
#9 ·
jewel
no reason to poligize. howsomever it is better it is better to hear from the horses mouth than the north end of a southbound horse. couple of things raised my interest from everything I have ever read ET and Bill Johnson got along famously and I doubt if either party either got furious with the other. Next as there were T100SS, T100SC, T100SR, TR6SR models why shouldnt there be T120SC AND T120SR models?
 
#10 ·
I wonder if JoMo ever sold Bonnies as "SR model" on the sales slip (and perhaps represented to the customer as some sort of "Special"), but not actually stamped as such, or recorded as such on title paperwork?

Perhaps that's the genesis of the story mentioned in the initial post of this thread?

Sounds plausible, at least; paint some scallops on the tank, install some aftermarket pipes...
 
#12 ·
Bill Johnson passed March 4,1962. This was just a few hours before Don Burnett won the Daytona 200 on a T100SR. Infomation contained TRIUMPH RACING MOTORCYCLES IN AMERICA (Brooke/Motorbooks 1996), also in TURNER'S TRIUMPHS Edward Turner & his TRIUMPH motorcycles (Clew/Veloce Publishing 2000)which is the same book as EDWARD TURNER the man behind the motorcyles (softbound Veloce Publishing 2006).
Now as far as the T120SR
Talked to a good friend of mine the other day. He was a TRI-COR TRIUMPH dealer in the early 60's. In other words ALL the bikes he sold were East Coast models (NO JOMO bikes).
He still has all the old records of the bikes he sold and checked them for us. His records show he sold the following bikes

1964 DU 8164 T120SR

1966 DU 35171 T120SR & DU 35295 T120SR

He stated that the SR stood for Sports Road. Adverts of the period tend to confirm this as they refer to Competition Sports, Special Competition,Road Sports, and Competition Trophy models.

He also has records of a '65 sold with alloy fenders VIN number DU 16964 it is his opinion this was a T120SC model. His records do not state that specifically however he does have a recall notice dealing with an incorrect speedometer being installed.

Then we have the October '65 Cycle World road test of another 'unknown' model the TR6SC.

With all due respect to the experts of the world I will go with the side of 40/45 yearold written records. I do not believe that either East or West Distributors changed the factory VIN stamping's as was said. That is the exception of the T120RT. By the way I was told Norman Hyde once said he was of the opinion that the RT model never existed.

jus the pinion of some one who is the same age as Mr Johnson when he passed

K
 
#15 ·
While I would not question Kadutz or his source, I do state that these are NOT factory stamped numbers nor was there a factory designated T120SR model.
I am going to do something now which will NOT happen again, assembly and dispatch records for T120R DU8164. These are actual pages from the two ledgers, make up your own conclusions from fact written at the time IN THE FACTORY.
I have emailed them to GPZ for him to include in this post.
Roy.
 
#17 ·
Before I go any farther I would like to stress I mean no disrespect to DAGAD nor his distinguished group of friends by ANYTHING I may say here at ANY time.
GPZ
I have talked to my friend today he is going to re review his old records next week. I really doubt he could confirm that the SR was stamped AT the factory after all he wasn't there.
As a more or less open statement It would appear that more than a few machines had a T120SR desigination stamped on them between 1963 and 1966. When and where they were stamped is open to opinion and research. In MY opinion to suggest that JOMO or
TRI-COR opened crates and stamped engines & frames with an S doesnt make any sense from a business point of view. As far as the T120SR model there is presently one advertised for sale in oldbikemart.co.uk Further this bike is stated to be an East Coast Model. I also found where in 2004 you were talking,on another site, to a man from Tennessee who said he had a '65 T120SR. Further in Gaylins book TRIUMPH MOTORCYCLE RESTORATION GUIDE on page 69 referecnce is made to T120SR and T120SC models. I dont know who did the stamping but appears obvious the there were/are a bunch of T120SR bikes in the world
 
#22 ·
T120 Sr



Hi, I do believe I have just purchased the T120SR you refer to in the OBM it was shipped back to the UK around a year ago, one or two things ar not correct on it but the SR is definatly there on the casings and the frame, the letter S on the frame does not look like it has been squezzed in but not so sure on the casings one.
Would it be possible that as a request from the American importers that the S was added for thier marketing ploy but was not registered at the factory just the T120R stamp was logged

Nigel S
 
#18 ·
Kadutz, I do agree with you that these bikes exist. If it was one or two then it would be suspect but to have so many from both East & West coast is a real mystery. I beleive I know who you are referring to as your contact 'L' who I respect and do not question.

However,the conundrum is here and we have two sets of facts, both of which are supported by written evidence. Do you think we will get to the bottom of this one or just chalk it up to history?
Roy.
 
#21 ·
DAGAD
I think we can get to the bottom of this with a little research. It may not get done today or tommorrow but is a good project for my spare time. It only took 20years to get the AMA to admit they had all the T120RT VIN numbers and agree to confirm them. You are to correct as to "L". He is very wise in the way of the TRIUMPH and is a person that people really in the know of the old bikes are aware of and respect. A couple of years ago I was at his place and he looked at me and said the phone number is wrong. I said what? To which he responded the the phone number is wrong. I said what phone number. Turns out I was wearing a T-Shirt with Tri-Cor's name address and phone number on the back.
That is the phone number he was talking about. Just for the record in my wandering I have found two more VIN's people claim are T120SR's DU16307 & DU 16602.

Jewel
No reason to poligize
 
#30 ·
Hi Kadutz

I will as soon as I receive the bike, photos were taken at the sellers house.
I purchased a magazine of the net yesterday. Motorcycle Classics December 1997 issue I don't know if you have read the article on the T120SR's thats in it, but it makes very interesting reading and I think explaines how the T120SR's came obout. ( looks like they were assembled in the States?) hence the SR stampings.

Nigel S
 
#33 ·
Nigel
First Thank You VERY VERY much for posting the article. I had not seen it it before and it made for an interesting read. This article had just been brought to my attention by some one else yesterday. I did find one thing very interesting. That is the mention of the SR stamps in the VIN. Of the '65 T120SR VIN's I have seen I have noted the SR is a wee bit larger than the DU or T in the rest of the VIN. BUT the S & R are matched to each other and all the SR's in the '65 model year I have seen are in the DU 16xxx series. It has also been brought to my attention of the '65 VIN numbers noted they were shipped to both JO MO & TRI COR.
This indicates,to me, that the SR numbers were stamped at the point of assembly In other words Meriden. It would be most unlikely both TRI COR & JO MO would have matching stamps. I do not believe the author of the article posted knows as much as they would like to have you believe. RE the T120RT model ONLY the engine was stamped NOT the frame as on the SR bikes. Also the 'T' stamp was different on the East and West coast models. If you want to know details about the RT let me know but the evidenice in the posted article as a support of the SR model is CR@P.
 
#34 ·
Hi Kadutz

Here is a pic of a T120 SR front frame that was listed on Ebay last week and as you say the SR is larger indicating that the gap left between the 120 and the DU was deliberate and the SR was applied
at Meriden.
The image is a bit blurred but you may be able to make it out

Nigel S Auto part Automotive lighting Automotive exterior Automotive exhaust
 
#36 ·
I do not know for a fact if they had the Logo on the back of the seat. However in all the pre '67 magazine road tests I have there is no logo shown on the seat back. As a quick guess I would say the Logo started showing up with the '67 models.
 
#44 ·
Hi Kadutz

Yes probably, I fail so see that there is nobody left out there somewhere who either work here at Meriden or in the States who would not know something about this, have all the workers passed on, I doubt it, what about Hughie Hancocks he is ex Meriden I thought, has anyone asked him? he must know other workers, or similarly anyone of the US ex workers,

I dont mean these techno boffins, I mean real workers that were on the shop floor.

The mystery goeson

Nigel S
 
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