Back in the 90s, Harley dealers used to brag: "We don't sell Harleys, we decide who gets to own one".
Well, guess what, they're not deciding anymore...... What goes around comes around.
Back in the 90s, Harley dealers used to brag: "We don't sell Harleys, we decide who gets to own one".
Well, guess what, they're not deciding anymore...... What goes around comes around.
I remember those days.... I was a young buck just aching to own a beautiful Sporty. I went down to the local dealer here and the bikes were typically marked up a couple of grand. Their "take it or leave it" attitude really changed the way I thought about "The Motor Company".
I did eventually get a 2004 Sportster 1200 Custom, but at $4500 (used, of course). I loved that bike, but the wife's tailbone didn't.
I went down to the dealership last week. The new bikes have ZERO appeal to me. The best analogy I can use is Harley seems like they are the teenager who had a good girl, but she realized he wasn't all that, so he's doing everything he can to please her. And she ain't buying it. They've really gotten into this crazy blacked-out, flat paint jobs and most of them have no chrome on them anymore. That is except for the touring bikes. The most appealing non-conventional Harley was the V-Rod, and they nixed it. Of course many might claim they actually designed and built a 1985 V-Max.
I think the buying public is getting wise to the fact that there are so many cheaper (if not better) options in the marketplace, one that is already saturated with used bikes because grandpa isn't able to ride anymore.
I know a couple younger (Millenial) fellow riders who were pulled into the H-Ds as their first bike, some new, some secondhand. All sold within 1-2 years and moved on to something else. Not because of the H-D bad-boy image, but because the bikes rattle themselves apart. One guy finally gave up after his entire tail light assembly fell off mid-ride and ended up wrecked... Anyone should do a head-to-tail of their bike's nuts and bolts once in a while, but I never hear so many stories of bits dropping off mid-ride as I do with H-Ds. That signature rumble seems to come with a cost.
As a long time Triumph and HD owner, being an owner of both for 40+ years - im calling BS on this one. I have over 400k miles on a Harley and plain and simple - unless the owner did not perform a proper preride look see (and im taking nothing for 10 years) or the dealer didnt set the bike up properly (very doubtful as this would have raised its head in a week) Im also calling BS as the tallight is nothing more than a lens screwed into a fender. Theres no apparatus. Im also really calling BS as if any apparatus is behind the bike and your moving forward, you cant run it over unless he has a really special bike that goes in reverse. Honestly - this did not happen. BTW, I'm more a Triumph than a HD guy and I cant defend your statement.. In all my years of owning an Evo or newer, I never had anything come off a bike. I never saw this or even heard of this on anything after a Shovelhead.
HDs not going anywhere, sales are down mildly and the press is calling chicken little. Nothing more than a slow news day...
Trapped by their own success pretty well sums it up.
Their sales force and customer base don't exactly welcome too much innovation and the buying demographic has changed.
They knew it when they had Buell, they knew it when they had the V-Rod and they know it know.
I have owned a few (3) Harley Sportsters, not a big one, never desired a 800lb. motorcycle. Hoping they survive, with new products and new buyers, there are a lot of JOBS here and in other countries to be lost if not. Also since we can't bad mouth our backward thinking politicians on this forum we can complain about our backward thinking Motor Co. We need them.
I visited the world's largest Harley dealer in Phoenix (according to them). It was pretty cool. I like some of the Harleys and I'd probably have one if I could afford a few different bikes. Never as my main, or only, bike though.
But my son and I were talking about it recently and we both agree...we'd both love a Harley, but neither one of us wants to be THAT guy. We don't want to be perceived by others as that "Harley guy" when we ride up to a place.
The image they cultivated is precisely what we don't want.
I have enjoyed my Harleys, however I wish I could say nothing has vibrated off. I lost a shift lever twice on my '05 Ultra. The shift linkage also came apart at a very unfortunate time.
That being said, they have just gotten too heavy for me. I'm getting older. I sold my 2016 Road King for a T120.
Been watching as H-D circles the drain for some time now. Next they will be hitting up the government for a bailout like GM. We don't need companies like these. People are so afraid of the jobs lost. Poorly run companies are just a drag on the country's productivity. I say "Let them fail". It might teach a much needed lesson to management teams all over the world. I cannot believe the H-D fans that try to tell me, "You want one. You just can't afford it"...NO I don't want one. ...J.D.
The two aren't comparable. GM wasn't bailed out because it was poorly run. It was bailed out because a certain group of politicians who don't believe in regulation and let bankers run wild. The result was a collapse of the credit markets.
All big companies need access to capital. They also all use the same supply chain.
Ford acquired a financing deal before the debacle. They did not want to see GM and Chrysler go under either. Their suppliers would have folded and it would have taken them out too.
HD is a different story. It's a new generation who aren't into the pirate thing as much. Hell, they aren't even that much into bikes or going outdoors. You'll note all the new Triumphs now come with Ipads strapped to the handlebars. That's what they like to look at.
The problem with Harley isn't lack of access to credit, it's a lack of customers. Why pay $20k for a new Harley when you can buy one a few years old with all the bolt on stuff on it already and no mileage for half the cost? The old guys are getting out and there's a ton of them on the market.
Most mfgs are going with the Harley business model these days. Look at the prices of these touring bikes. $30k for a Yamaha with an air cooled twin...and not even a hint of chrome plating?
Triumph is killing all the small dealers for bigger places that have boutiques along with lots of inventory. Indian came out of the gates like that.
It appears to me that they're all done flooding the market then giving everything away for free after it sits for years. They all seem to be going with this "premium brand" model that Harley dreamed up. They won't discount because that would "devalue" the brand. So they'll just make fewer bikes and sell them for more money.
Harley just has to make a lot fewer bikes as there are so many essentially new, used Harleys around now...and so many kids that don't understand manual transmissions or analog gauges.
I may of said this before, can't stand them and all stuff attached to them, but each to their own, but I do like the old 40's stuff I haven't read the article. Why don't HD make smaller of sportier machines, instead of just churning out the same old agricultural slightly chopped dross, IMAO. There must be a market in the USA!
Went to the MCN show in Docklands a few weeks ago, every stand had a lure of something that I wanted to sit on, even Suzuki, the only one I went straight past was the HD one!
Biggsy
I think that may be the problem ... there doesn't seem to be much of a Harley market outside of the traditional "pirate" image. Look at the VRod ... arguably one of the better bikes they made. Liquid cooled, overhead cams, sophisticated EFI with ion sensing ignition, Brembo brakes (at least on the later ones ... I have a 2003 with the earlier brakes, which lack a bit), good power, 9500 RPM redline, comfortable, and handles surprisingly well. AND ... it's discontinued and despite a long run from 2002-2017 didn't really add much to Harley's bottom line/sales numbers. Too much "that ain't a real Harley" attitude.
I see it as the "next generation" Harley that was rejected ... some due to marketing, some due to the success of the "traditional" product line. The target market for a bike like the Vrod really didn't shop H-D because of the majority of the product being big heavy cruisers and bad-boy wanna be looking stuff. Hard to fault them for going where their customers are ... the new Milwaukee 8 motor is slight evolution with overhead cams and oil cooled heads and is being hailed as a miracle in engineering, at least to their main customer base. The V had all that and more at the turn of the century but nobody really cared in that customer base.
I've ridden a new Fat Bob with the bigger M8 ... NICE bike. Fit and finish were superb, torquey as hell and felt faster than it was. Brakes were retina detaching and the bike overall was well balanced, if a bit heavy at low speeds. I was really intrigued when i rode it at a Harley try out event at our local (HUGE) dealer. Then the other shoe dropped ... $21,000 ... twenty ... one ... THOUSAND dollars equipped like I wanted.
Base price with the bigger motor - $18699
Paint (any color than black) - $400
ABS - $795
Black SlipOns - $499.95
End Caps - $119.95
Total $20, 018.85 ... then add tax and dealer delivery charge to get dangerously close to $21K
Wow! ... and to add insult to injury they would lowball the heck out of my Vrod if I traded it.
The Milwaukee 8 motor doesn't have overhead cams. Still is an overhead valve motor with four valves for each cylinder. Much like putting lipstick on a pig.
I'm not a HD fan by any means, but I wish them well. I think my son's assessment is right- thier customer base is dying off/no longer riding. Guys his age (26) don't want outdated, overpriced technology. Couple that with the typical (not all) obnoxious HD rider attitude (which turns lots of folks off) and it's not a recipe for continued success.
Funny all this talk about things vibrating off HD bikes. I remember friends who rode Triumphs back in the day and after each ride the bike became lighter for some reason. Read reviews of Aprilia where parts had come loose and jettisoned themselves during a demo ride. Like any big behemoth living on its past glory and product, if new products aren't developed to deal with a changing market sooner than later, the writing on the wall can blind side. HD became a banana republic catering to a singular crowd. They started to campaign to reach out to women and maybe an electric bike will mean something, but I think like a huge cargo ship, they are too big to turn quickly. I guess they are counting on the offspring of baby boomers to carry them into the future. Not. Perhaps they will morph into a clothing only company. T shirts, hats and do rags.
Triumph is not a large company. I feel that they have to appeal to a wide range of customers to make a statement that we are a viable alternative to the Big Four and larger European producers. If they are going a bit boutique or trendy, that's the current edge in marketing. If they want to move forward, they might need to neglect the older faithful a bit. Harley doesn't seem to understand this. If this was so easy, there would be more motorcycle companies producing a decent quantity of bikes. There used to be hundreds of motorcycle brands or thousands. Times have certainly changed. I also don't see Triumph being able to price their bikes significantly lower. Big bang for the buck means you make compromises in component offering and you need to have the production capability of a much larger company. Whether Triumph's marketing and engineering strategies succeed for the future is anyone's guess. Harley needs to get out of its own way without totally abandoning what got them here in the first place. Then again, I'm not a motorcycle executive with far reaching ideas.
Me, personally, I just don't like the aesthetics of HD. I'd rather have an Indian if I was going for the "Americana look". But man, when I see a Harley, I can't help but think, "Guy in full HD costume, not wearing a helmet, pipes loud enough to piss off all the people in the trailer park, making payments on a bike he can't afford". I know I shouldn't stereotype, but there's enough of those guys around me to where that's pretty much all you see.
I also love how the local HD website lists no prices on any bikes - they make you fill out a form and have someone contact you or you have to go in just to get the price. Feels like a slimy used car dealership. No thanks - I'm smart enough to find out what the MSRP is on the corporate website.
I hate to see an American company suffer, but yeah - if they're making poor decisions and they're a victim of their own ignorance, what do you expect. Their prices alone were enough to turn me off.
All that being said, I can't wait to ride my T120 in a month.
I'm afraid if they had to rely on ME for new sales, they (both H-D and Triumph) would be out of luck. The newest bike I have is a 2002. Had a friend show up for a ride a few weeks ago on a brand new Triumph 1200 bonnie. I tried to fake being interested, but it didn't do much for me. Too sanitized. Too sophisticated. Like my old raw carburetted ones better. Just me I guess. Crazy old man that I am. ...J.D.
I think HD makes some decent bikes but they are too big for me except the Sportster. My buddy has a Sportster and when we ride together and stop at a stop light I am sitting next to him and he and the entire bike are shaking so badly I cannot see how he stands it. That enough is reason for me not to have one.
Actually I believe most of the stereotypes of who are buying Harley's today is wrong. I am not a Harley fan and will probably never own one, but the old, criminal, thug (whatever your clithe of choice is), are not the ones buying Harley's today. They can't afford them and are dying off. Who is/was buying them are the yuppy lawyers, accountants, doctors, etc, who have boring jobs and lives, and now can afford one and want to pretend on a Saturday afternoon that they are badasses. LOL. Then they discover after the first year of ownership, that riding isn't for them and don't ride much anymore. The new generation of riders love technology and Harley has none of that. No one wants to spend that much money for an over priced, heavy motorcycle with technology still routed in the 40' or ever earlier. For the half price, you have a much better bike, with more tech, more performance, more handling, more braking and everything else. I always found it humerous that the most modern bike they ever built, the VRod, they didn't actually design the engine. Maybe that's why it worked pretty good.
We already have an Indian dealer in town and the place I bought my Triumph from is carrying Indian now too. I've yet to see someone around me ride one but you almost wonder if Indian is trying to deal the death blow to HD when it comes to the American market. The scout is a sweet looking bike.... Just not for me.
I can remember, during the peak of HD hype (2 year wait for a new one, at the time), seeing a small HD dealer in Virginia that did not have one single new bike on their salesroom floor...but their sign advertised that they had both the Ken and Barbie HD dolls. Seriously. That's when I decided that HD was like Budweiser...a mediocre (at best) product backed by a huge marketing machine. It was successful...while it lasted.
I've ridden HD's and have never been impressed. A while back, I picked up a Buell Blast (with 1/2 of a Sportster engine) to have as a spare bike for visitors and, frankly, it reminds me of driving a tractor. No finesse at all, and very dated.
The Indian Scout is a sweet bike for a cruiser.... way nicer than the Sportster IMO.... and the technology is actually from this century. If I was in the market for a cruiser, that would be it.
ALL motorcycle manufacturers are in trouble. Harley will survive. They have the the most loyal fan base of any product in the world. Every manufacture of ANYTHING would sell their soles to Satan to have their repeat customers. They have a cult like following that make pilgrimage to Mecca at least once a month for a free hot dog and bikini bike wash. While they are their they dump a few bucks on overpriced T-Shirts. HD dealers have more parts and accessories IN STOCK then any other brand of manufacturer which spurs impulse buys. If you lose a coil for your Triumph in the middle of nowhere USA...your waiting at least three days..an HD dealer or an independent is rarely more then 30 minutes away. You have to give HD credit...they sell an archaic farm tractor for 25% more then its worth and sell every one they build every year.
Harley like all manufacturers suffer from the lack of younger riders. Your average HD owner has got to be over 50. At your next motorcycle meet up or road trip look around...Its mostly old men. Its an old mans status symbol.
HD dealers had Buell and VRODS shoved down their throats...the didn't want them..the bike didn't appeal to their base at all.
Indian dealerships are ghost towns. You can only sell so much vintage and "retro". I dont see Indian alive another 5 years.
The time is NOW for Harley to figure out how to survive. It's going to be a tough struggle now with quarter after quarter of declining sales. What they need to do is heavy, heavy exit polling when a potential customer leaves without a purchase. That is, IF the person left a number or email address behind. I'm not talking about harassing anyone, but do extreme due diligence in finding out what stopped the deal. Was it the price? Was it the styling of the bikes? Was it the salesperson's attitude? Was it simply that they liked another brand's bike better? FIGURE IT OUT!
I happen to love HD. I love the quality, the sound, the trinkets, and the fact they are an American icon of a motorcycle. I think their build quality is far superior to many mainstream lines. If you've ever looked at any of their CVO bikes, while horribly expensive, the paint, fit, finish is pure art. I've always been amazed at how substantial the component build is when working on the one I had was. I mean every part looked like it could have been from an earlier time period of the American Industrial Age.
I am speaking MY opinion here. Everyone is entitled to their own, so don't get me wrong. I think a lot of people's perspectives about the demographic who rides them is simply wrong. It has indeed changed a lot in the last say... 15 years. If it's old men everyone say is riding them, well I get that. I think a lot of that is price driven. It's a lot like the Corvette. Unless you're pretty well off financially, that kind of dough ain't just laying around. Raising a family, tuition, mortgages, and lower income in a person's younger years sort of stifle purchasing a $17-20K toy that is seasonal.
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