Another k&n 204 horror story w/Scramber - Page 4 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Air Cooled Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for Hinckley Triumph Twins: Bonneville, Bobber, T100, Speedmaster, America, Thruxton, and Scrambler.


Sponsored by: Triumph Twin Power Ltd

 36Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 09:55 AM
Grand Prix 125
Main Motorcycle: Thunderbird Sport 900
New Member
 
Gogreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Swords, Co Dublin
Posts: 22
Garage
Hi this is news to me about K&N, I'm a habitual user of their air filters but never used thier oil filters. I usually go OEM or Bosch,MANN or Fram. I have seen a lot of people selling HiFlo here in UK but have no experience of them.

I agree with the majority of posts here I think as long as it starts, runs and sounds OK after refil you dodged two bullets; your bike survived and you stayed upright! I hope K&N have good insurance, you can certainly claim for cleaning and laundry and maybe even new kit if yours is ruined.

Keep it rubber side down
Ward1991 likes this.

The throttle works both ways
Gogreen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 10:03 AM
Site Supporter
Legend
Main Motorcycle: 2008 Bonneville Black
Driftless Admin
 
BonnieBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fountain City, WI
Posts: 10,702
Other Motorcycle: Spousal 2009 Bonnie Black
Garage
The fact that it stalled is interesting, I missed that first time around. And I'm not sure how much oil is left in the sump after the oil pump can't pick any more up. But still, engine is running good. And what can you do besides just ride it? Well, make sure you file a claim with K&N directly so it's on the record in case the worst happens, and after that forget about it.

These motors are over-engineered and tough. They are not prissy delicate sport bike motors, they are meant to work and last. They eat a little oil starvation for breakfast
LapinAgile likes this.
BonnieBlack is offline  
post #33 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 06:39 PM
Grand Prix 500
Main Motorcycle: Bonneville T100
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 122
Chada, you had one leak at the welded nut and it wasn't in the recall group? Oh boy... I had a friend who worked for K&N up until a year ago, so I had a small stash of KN204s. My last two are on the Bonnie and my CB1100. Both are after the recall range, but I still give them a look and a quick feel for leaks before I ride.

If you don't mind me asking, can you tell if your leaking one was dated after the recalled units?

Lone Commuter of the Apocalypse
2012 Bonneville T100
2013 Honda CB1100
Gone in 60 is offline  
 
post #34 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-07-2019, 11:59 PM
Site Supporter
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: Bonneville T100 SMQ SE
Lifetime Premium
 
Tornado99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,181
Other Motorcycle: 1974 Norton Commando 850
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone in 60 View Post
Chada, you had one leak at the welded nut and it wasn't in the recall group? Oh boy... I had a friend who worked for K&N up until a year ago, so I had a small stash of KN204s. My last two are on the Bonnie and my CB1100. Both are after the recall range, but I still give them a look and a quick feel for leaks before I ride.

If you don't mind me asking, can you tell if your leaking one was dated after the recalled units?
The recall on these weld nut filters was for a specific date range over a few months but a Google search reveals failure reports going back more than nine years. And we've had reports on failed new filters not in the recalled batch. Some may be due to incorrect use i.e. using the nut to torque filter onto the bike rather than the intended remove only use case. But again, owners have reported not using nut for tightening and still the welds failed.
Basically these are a poor design as welding such thin metal is unreliable. There are many solutions to help with filter removal. These welded nut designs are a solution looking for an actual problem.

2013 T100 Steve McQueen; +NH Togas; -SAI; -O2; +Breathe; +TTP#3; +Avon RoadRiders; +Iron&Resin Sidebag; +Kisan Auto-Off Indicators & BrakeLight Flasher; +MatchlessClueless LED Brake & Indicators; +LED 3000 Lumens Headlamp; +DeCosse Keyless system
Tornado99 is offline  
post #35 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 10:50 AM
Legend
Main Motorcycle: 2005 Bonneville Blue 790
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Central Maryland, USA
Posts: 10,083
Other Motorcycle: 1973 CB450, long gone
It's magical thinking to believe that on a filter with a "nut", said nut won't be used for tightening it. I suspect that might be an after-the-fact rationalization on the part of K&N, but in any case, it's become apparent that welding a "nut" on the filter shell is a bad idea.

If K&N is committed to this design, they need to figure out how to do it properly. And if the nut is only to be used for loosening, it needs to be a design that only permits it to be turned in one direction.
Rayvin likes this.

Marty
2005 Bonneville Blue 790cc, AI removed, Staintunes RC, no snorkel, inlet enlarged, 118/40/NBZT needles/1 shim/3 turns, Ikon 7610s, Ricor Intiminators, Barnett green clutch springs, Michelin Pilot Activs, D9 gauge panel, tachometer.
Baltobonneville is online now  
post #36 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
Minitwins
New Member
 
Ward1991's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 20
I can confirm that, atleast in my case, my filters are ALWAYS tighten by hand only including the one that was on my bike.

I've worked on too many people cars that required me to use the messy screwdriver method. F-that.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Rayvin likes this.
Ward1991 is offline  
post #37 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 11:54 AM
Site Supporter
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: Bonneville T100 SMQ SE
Lifetime Premium
 
Tornado99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,181
Other Motorcycle: 1974 Norton Commando 850
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltobonneville View Post
It's magical thinking to believe that on a filter with a "nut", said nut won't be used for tightening it. I suspect that might be an after-the-fact rationalization on the part of K&N, but in any case, it's become apparent that welding a "nut" on the filter shell is a bad idea.

If K&N is committed to this design, they need to figure out how to do it properly. And if the nut is only to be used for loosening, it needs to be a design that only permits it to be turned in one direction.
Yes I'm with you all the way! Every nut and bolt one encounters through out life can be both tightened and untightened except the one we see on these filters??!! They can put as many warnings and labels on the packaging but trying to teach people something special about something they already know how to use (a nut) is doomed to fail.

2013 T100 Steve McQueen; +NH Togas; -SAI; -O2; +Breathe; +TTP#3; +Avon RoadRiders; +Iron&Resin Sidebag; +Kisan Auto-Off Indicators & BrakeLight Flasher; +MatchlessClueless LED Brake & Indicators; +LED 3000 Lumens Headlamp; +DeCosse Keyless system
Tornado99 is offline  
post #38 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 12:15 PM
Site Supporter
Legend
Main Motorcycle: 2008 Bonneville Black
Driftless Admin
 
BonnieBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fountain City, WI
Posts: 10,702
Other Motorcycle: Spousal 2009 Bonnie Black
Garage
There are no warnings on the box not to use the nut to tighten the filter. I scoured the box and filter too at the auto part place and found no such warning. And I'm confused why you guys think that would cause the filter to leak anyways, unless you assume they are using gorilla-like forces? There's no special welding technique that supports CCW pressure but not CW, right?

Using a wrench or hand to tighten to install makes no difference, and if it did then that would be reason for recall itself. You can't sell a filter that fragile. Can you imagine K&N telling a judge in a class action lawsuit "But, we didn't want them to use it to install the filter, just to uninstall it". Can you imagine the eye roll.
BonnieBlack is offline  
post #39 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 12:36 PM
Grand Prix 250
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 80
It's really pretty simple...

K&N's claim to fame for their oil filters has been the nut on the end. That design only placates the nut with their hand on the filter.

K&N's design "appends" the nut to the filter case in a way that compromises the integrity of the filter housing and time, and their insurance pay outs, has proven that to be true.

The way to do it would be to stamp the nut from the inside of the housing BUT there would be no way to keep the metal thickness consistent during the stamping process and that would compromise the reliability of the filter housing.

The resolution to this problem is to hand tighten the filter, as often recommended by the manufacturer, and use the proper tool to remove it not to redesign filters to accommodate end users. The higher cost of a K&N oil filter over third party reliable filters will offset the expense of buying the correct tool you need only buy once.

Occam's razor proves itself yet another time...
justalurker is offline  
post #40 of 71 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 01:12 PM
Site Supporter
Legend
Main Motorcycle: 2008 Bonneville Black
Driftless Admin
 
BonnieBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fountain City, WI
Posts: 10,702
Other Motorcycle: Spousal 2009 Bonnie Black
Garage
Apparently not, because the OP did hand tighten the filter and it leaked. Occam's razor suggests the manufacturing process leads to some of the welding points being leaky, prior to a wrench being applied or not.

The resolution is to buy a brand without a history of failure, IMO
BonnieBlack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options
All posts must adhere to Forum Rules

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome