I recently purchased a 2016 T120 in cinder red which I am very proud to own. I just love retro looking bikes! Unfortunately I've experienced lots of vibration since day one of owning it. On my first good, long ride there was so much vibration that my knees hurt. In all of my years of riding I'd never had my knees hurt. I dropped it off at the dealership and they found that one of the chains links was stuck and was causing a lot of vibration over 50 mph. Also, both wheels were 180 degrees out of alignment. A new chain plus re-balancing both tires did wonders and the bike felt great. In the past month I have noticed a gradual increase in vibration. When in idle as well as slow speeds in 1st and 2nd gear I can feel a steady thumping. A quick check with my Dealertool shows that the throttle bodies are out of alignment. The Dealertool recommends they be adjusted so my question is: Is this something that is covered under warranty and if so, how much out of balance does it need to be to be considered a warranty issue? I don't remember the exact numbers the Dealertool gave me but the throttle body number were different by 2 to 3 points if that it the correct terminology. This is both at cold idle as well as with a warm engine.
I think the Factory diagnostic tool has some tolerance, if the balance is good enough, as they see it, then the machine will say it's OK, even if not perfect. The dealer won't take lightly having to balance the throttle bodies though, it's a complicated affair on these bikes. All talked about and described, with drawings, on this thread:
I agree that the dealer is going to be loathe to balance the throttle bodies unless it is way out of alignment. I'm curious how much out of alignment it has to be. I plan on doing the job myself and see if it helps with the vibration issue any.
Being that this is my first inline twin I am unsure of how much vibration is normal. I've owned inline fours, V fours, V twins, and single thumpers each with a varying degree of vibration. Inline fours were the smoothest with V twins the roughest. Any opinion on where the T120 stands?
Suggest you add your location and bike to your profile on the left for future reference.
Would also suggest you rack up ~ 2,000 miles before you think of messing with it since you've a ton of break-in to do. Should get smoother...
You have a 270 degree crank, so it's not much like a 360 parallel twin anyway..., and IIRC, the T-120 has TWO counter-balancer shafts. Give it some time unless the vibration is horrendous..., in which case, take it back to the dealer. Not sure how well you'd do by trial and error vs the dealer's laptop tool.
From what I've been reading it sounds like they have an issue with balancing the throttle body on this bike. I'm sure a few bugs will need to be worked out with the following year bike.
This is why I never buy a first year anything. The second year often a different animal, and the third year a different animal yet.
I purchased a new Harley sportster back in 05, and that 05 came with many changes then the first year rubber mounted 04. Hand full of changes that made a big difference in the bike. Glad I waited for the second year.
I think that will prove to be the case with these new bikes. Sometimes it can take a few years for them to work all the bugs out.
It was that way with the T-100, although we had very few bugs, other then the rear hub spoke breaking and then the boss thing that would crack inside of the primary case when the starter would backlash on some part in there. Then the breather blowing oil issue which they changed that breather thing, could be other small things. My 2007 a different bike then my 2003.
Reads as if Triumph dealer sorted out the worst with wheel balance and a tight link in the chain. Thing is why three rogue faults rectified when only one would be usual? Both front and rear wheel plus the chain????
And jumping from one engine configuration to another (as I do just for the hell of it) I find most differences are relative to what I had become used to before the change. So now to the vibration at idle and while riding. Two different engine conditions/states so every chance they are separate problems.
Idle - Throttle balance would need to be some way out to cause a thump or vibration. Its a parallel twin but with the crankshaft modified to give a V twin riding character. The uneven firing order might be what you hear and or feel at idle.
Thumping while riding is unlikely to be a problem with throttle balance. Once open beyond idle the throttle butterflies have massive gaps round them so a little out between the two is a very small percentage. I have the 900 engine in the ST model. No sight of a manual just yet or time to get inside but I'm told it only has one throttle so balance is not going to be the cause. Mine tends to snatch back and forward against the transmission at low speed in first and second gears. Just what some might describe as a thump. I'm talking walking pace and just above which the small section front tyre, low weight and very good low speed fuelling make easy to do compared with many other bikes. I tried tight and slack chain to see if it improves things but no difference. Its not ever so bad. Just some multi cylinder bikes and even singles and V twins with big flywheels can be much better. Like I find this could just be relative to what other bikes you are used to.
Now my specialism is refining transmissions. I'm going to work my way further through this twin to see what can be done to improve it. The erratic quality of the gear change in my bike also points to a common problem linked to low speed shunt, snatch or thump. I'll report back and share if there's anything of use to the wider community.
Perhaps removing or reducing the built-in throttle twistgrip slack could help. Not having a mechanical cable, but a ride-by-wire throttle, all that play in the twistgrip is not really necessary. See this thread for a discussion and a method of dealing with it, it starts on post 20 with a very good, detailed link:
Sounds like several items were missed during assembly and final factory inspection on Fatbiker's T120.
There's something wrong, without doubt. My T120 is the most vibration-free bike I've ever owned, eerily so. There's no play or snatch in the throttle-by-wire set up. Shifting is perfect. Maybe I've just been lucky, but my bike has been problem free.
My guess is that fully assembled wheels are delivered to Triumph, who has professional teams who mount and balance tires all shift long. They sure got it right on my T120. I'd be interested to see how much weight is on each of the OP's bike's wheel rims now, and how it's distributed.
It's hard to imagine jammed or frozen links in a new modern drive chain. This should have been noticed by DID, or as the bike was being assembled, the first time the rear wheel was spun by hand to check the tension. It should also have been detected before the sprocket cover was installed, since the chain has to go on before all of the rear brake and ABS components can be attached.
This seems like a perfect storm of faults, each one of which is unusual and somewhat rare in itself.
I will take the advice of waiting till I hit 2000 miles and see if things smooth out. I'm currently at 1100 on the odometer. I too was very surprised that both wheels were out of balance but the shop mechanic said this was not the first time he'd seen this problem. He didn't say which brand bike he saw the problem with before and I did not ask. If I remember correctly he said that his shop checks and re-balances the wheels on all new bike before putting them on the showroom floor. Perhaps an inexperienced tech re-balanced them incorrectly.
As for the chain, I have very little experience with chains except with mountain bikes as all my other motorcycles had shaft drive but I was surprised to hear that it was bad. The bike came with an X chain but replaced it with a non-X chain as they did not have one in stock and I did not want to wait 3 weeks for one to come in. I believe they replaced it with an O chain. The thumping and vibration I am experiencing seem to grow gradually with each ride. The thumping is more pronounced and the vibration is beginning to cause my right hand to tingle after an hour or so ride. I have check the torque on the handlebar bolts and they are tight. Nothing on the handlebar is loose. Could there be a problem with one or both of the sprockets? Maybe a bad one caused the chain to go bad? I still think the throttle bodies being out of balance is a problem. I can see the tachometer bouncing from 900 rpm to 1100 rpm in neutral and I can feel the thumping up to 4000 rpm while in 1st and second gear. My Dealertool says they need adjusting. I admit that my assumption that the throttle bodies are the problem could be way off as I have no experience with inline twins. My deductive reasoning says that a thump feeling while the bike is in neutral plus in gear along with a jumping tachometer and the Dealertool saying the bike is out of balance equals unbalanced throttle bodies. Again, I could be way wrong.
On rare occasion there is a hesitation in the throttle response but that has seemed to get better the more I ride.
My t120 has 300 miles on it and the tachometer bounces at idle on average about 100 rpm but sometimes 200. It stalled on me twice today, just sitting at traffic lights, in neutral, no throttle. I fired it up and the rpm shot up to 1500 before settling back down. I will be interested to see what they find at the first service
Might I suggest you need to separate the cause of this vibration as being from the chassis or the engine. At least you will know which haystack the problem needle is in.
Ride until the vibration is at its worst - perhaps 30 MPH in fourth or higher. Then pull the clutch and let the engine drop to idle. If the vibration continues while you coast along at 30 MPH or a whisker above or below then its likely chassis related.
If the vibration dies with engine speed its most likely engine related.
Some engine and chassis problems will only show under load so not bound to be conclusive tests but might help separate things out so give it a try.
Your bike has a tacho. Does the vibration happen in the same engine RPM range what ever the gear you are in? Can you bring it on by just opening the throttle in neutral. Or is it always at the same road speeds or throttle position when riding?
Has the numb knees problem gone with the wheels balanced and chain swap?
Chassis source could be one of wheel balance, tyre wall or tread damage (will show good balance but buck when riding), buckled wheel, damaged chain sprockets or failed wheel bearing. Must say anything numbs the hands is likely to be a higher frequency vibration than these. That said if the whole bike vibrates so much it could be numbness from holding on so tight.
Engine source could be way out balance of the throttles, burnt valves, worn off camshaft lobe, loose engine mount, bad ignition, bad fuel injection or something mechanical in the clutch or gearbox.
I never hold with advice to ride and see if it gets better. Bad workshops who run out of ideas use this one. Assume the bike has warranty and the workshop is Triumph?
Its going to be something peculiar to a new bike or more correctly just one new component.
Egg in the tyre? One of my Pirelli Phantoms is made in Brazil. The other made in China.
Burnt valve the - valve train mechanism is all new design. Same for the camshafts.
Fuel or ignition - all new Control unit for both functions.
Went for a 200 mile ride today and tested the bike as recommended in the post above. The bike vibrates in neutral starting at 1400 rpm on up. While going 40 mph I put the bike in 5th gear and could really feel the vibration. The vibrations mostly disappeared when pulling in the clutch and letting the bike coast. I figure the remaining light vibration was from the road. From 3000 rpm and over the vibrations increase and that's in all gears. The thumping feeling which I know comes from the engine is slightly worse.
In response to your question about my knees hurting after the new chain and wheel balance; at first all of the vibration was gone and my knees did not hut. The vibration has slowly become worse with each ride. Today, after the 200 mile ride, my knees were fatigued but not sore. I am going to hook up the DealerTool today while the bike is warm and see if there is a change in the throttle body readings.
These engines ought to be very smooth with their 270º balance-shafted design and, by all accounts so far, they are. If vibration is that noticeable on yours there's something wrong, either throttle body balance or adjustment of the balance shafts.
There are two adjustments on those: The initial installation and timing with the crankshaft and the final dynamic adjustment carried out with the engine running.
The former is done with alignment tools T3880811 - Front Balancer Timing Tool, T3880809 - Rear Balancer Timing Tool and T3880601 - Camshaft Timing Pin, and ought to be OK from the factory, but you never know.
The second or dynamic adjustment concerns the meshing of the balancer shaft driving gears with the crank and it's done by ear, you have to listen for either an audible whine (meshing too tight) or a rattle (meshing too loose) and adjust accordingly. There are various access ports in the crankcases to do this without major dismantling.
I wouldn't have thought the dynamic adjustment would affect vibration, only noise, however in the manual it states:
Correct adjustment of the balancer shafts is critical to the performance of the engine and comfort of the rider.
Failure to correctly adjust the balancer shafts may cause serous engine damage and a poor rider experience.
What seems like engine speed related vibration could be showing in one of two types.
A problem inside the engine such as balance shaft or throttle balance needs tracking down one suspect item after another. Let's hope a workshop poking round for one thing has not inadvertantly introduced another.
The other type of engine speed related vibration is where something outside the engine is vibrating in sympathy with normal engine vibrations. So well in sympathy that its amplified to a powerful level. Run the engine up to vidration speed with the bike on the stand and then feel around the bike with a free hand. Hold the tank and feel if the vibrations are there. Then tighten your grip on it to see if you can get rid of the vibration. Try this with every likely large loose part. Bars, each silencer at the cool end before they get hot, any after market parts like racks and engine bars. Hold the seat, headlight, clocks and so on. Check the security of anything that you can kill the vibration in. Remove a rack back to stock build etc.
As example I just found the source of a nasty vibration in my Street Twin. Nothing like as bad as you experience. I found the chrome top of my fuel cap rattles something shocking at a certain engine rpm. Hold it tight and it goes away. The caps metal top is so heavy and loose it also crashes in time with the forks hitting a join in the tarmac. At first I suspected the forks or steering head. Nothing in the cap I can tighten my self so will have to get it changed. These are the typical things you find in new build motorcycles. We are the lab mice for the manufacturers.
I went for a nice 200 mile ride today and this was the first time my knees did not hurt. Vibration was still there and only gave me numb butt today. As soon as I came home I hooked up the DealerTool and checked the throttle body balance. It was actually in sync. Only off by 1 point. I checked in both idle, 3K rpm and 5K rpm. Perhaps the bike is still breaking in. Currently at 1400 miles.
I found an 6" piece of aluminum toobing laying around and decided to check various parts of the bike for vibration. I tested at both idle and 3K rpm which is where I find the vibration to begin. I removed the seat. I found that the engine and transmission area had ZERO vibration. At least none that I could detect. The front fork, fork brace, water cooler, gas tank, and the front part of the frame had very little vibration. Almost none. The handlebars, headlight, throttle bodies, and exhaust headers had noticable vibration but not excessive. As I tested the rear of the bike I found that the swing arm, chain guard, and chain had ZERO vibration. The mufflers, upper frame under the seat, and the rear fender had quite a bit of vibration. The hand rail located behind the seat and the right rear turn signal had a LOT of vibration. You could actually see the vibration at 3K rpm and up. I checked the hand rail bolts and they were tight.
Being that the motor is not vibrating I cannot see how vibration is moving to the rear of the bike. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to check next?
I went for a nice 200 mile ride .... gave me numb butt today.
....The mufflers, upper frame under the seat, and the rear fender had quite a bit of vibration. The hand rail located behind the seat and the right rear turn signal had a LOT of vibration. You could actually see the vibration at 3K rpm and up. I checked the hand rail bolts and they were tight.
Being that the motor is not vibrating I cannot see how vibration is moving to the rear of the bike. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to check next?
Reads to me as if your rear grab rail is a perfect amplifier of the engines minimal vibrations. Take it off and go for a ride. Or if you can't then try tightening all six bolts its fastened to the main frame with. Particularly the two hidden inside the rear mudguard that screw into the inside of the top rear shock mounts. They are low profile button Torx T40 socket heads. Soft and flimsy bits of cheap c**p metal for that application and my guess is who fitted the rail did not have a good fitting tool either.
Its often the case that after market parts don't get the same noise vibration and harshness (NVH) testing that the main engine and frame components go through before production starts.
My Street Twin came with a rear carrier. Its bolted firm to the very end of the frame under the seat. The two Torx buttons heads fastening it to the shock mounts (access awkward from inside the rear fender) I mention above are simply not heavy enough to cope with the leverage of a grab rail/rack. The space for the tool is small so I'm going to have to cut my inner fender slightly to get some adequate bolts in there. All that trouble to build a smooth motor and the use weak bolts to fasten a flimsy bit of metal on the most vulnerable to vibration part of the frame.
Your motor is big and heavy. Any vibration from it will not be visible or able to be felt with your hands etc. The parts that are vibrating in sympathy with the motor will actually amplify the motors vibration. These parts will vibrate at the same frequency as the motor but with greater movement that you feel. What I'm saying is your rail is like a big tuning fork. Once the engine excites it there's no stopping it getting going real fierce.
Later edit in next post with pictures to demonstrate what might be your problem.
Puzzling...even though vibration was not detected in engine area with your method, it must be the original source, of course. Strange the grab rail is so bad, it's a sturdy-looking part but perhaps it's vibrating in sympathy with the engine. I'd remove it and go for a ride and see if the seat part of the vibes goes away.
Later edit with pictures to demonstrate what might be your problem.
Rack and your grab rail are going to use same mounting points on the frame.
Picture 1 - Here the rack is shown removed with its six bolts in place. Its a substantial weight cantilevered off the back of the bikes frame. Give it a tap while its in your hand and it vibrates like big low frequency tuning fork. The group of four bolts at its centre seemingly over adequate when compared to the two at the front (shock top mount area) with their flimsy thin washers.
Picture 2 - See how the washer and size of the bolt head are nothing like adequate to clamp the rack firmly to the frame. Needed to counter any leverage applied by a load on the rack or pillion pulling it up using the grab handle under braking. I had repeatedly tightened these two bolts and my annoying vibration through the seat would reduce for a while. Not realizing their washers would slowly distort when the rack/grab rail was used. Thus allowing one or both of these bolts to lose their purchase on the racks side tube.
Picture 3 - The thin washers and small bolt heads in more detail. See how the face of the side bar shows signs of fretting where it should be tight against the frame. Rather poor quality engineering Triumph.
Seems I messed up loading pictures for my first attempt. Be nice if they could be alongside their descriptions.
So do I, after investing 4 posts on the thread and learning nothing...and your 7 excellent contributions The OP was here 3-4 days ago so bumping the thread a day or two might entice him to reply if he sees it again. We deserve it.
I took the bike back to the dealership where I bought it and placed it right next to a brand new 2016 T120 black. We started both bikes and you could easily tell that my bike had more vibration than the T120 black. There was very noticeable visual vibration in the grab rail and especially the right rear turn signal. Everyone who looked at it agreed my bike should not vibrate so much. They took it to the service department and checked every inch of the bike for loose bolts, broken parts, uneven throttle body balance, everything. Nothing was found. The dealership decided not to look into it any further as they would not be reimbursed by Triumph and I was not keen on paying them to do so. I have rode the bike an additional 1000 miles since this last visit and the vibration has lessened slightly but it is still far from acceptable. I now ride it only for short trips to local stores and the grocery and have pulled my old VMax out of mothballs and use it for long trips.
The dealership decided not to look into it any further as they would not be reimbursed by Triumph and I was not keen on paying them to do so. I have rode the bike an additional 1000 miles since this last visit and the vibration has lessened slightly but it is still far from acceptable. I now ride it only for short trips to local stores and the grocery and have pulled my old VMax out of mothballs and use it for long trips.
Thanks for the feedback. Frankly that is apalling, surely they can seek permission from Triumph to investigate further, the balance shafts timing and adjustment I've detailed on post 14, for example.
+1 on opening a case. You did not spend thousands of dollars only to have the bike sit due to a manufacturing defect. Take charge of your scenario and have it fixed. Thas what warranties are for after all.
i ride a 2017 Street Twin,I don't know why i get alot of vibration on the the top of the throttle . It's gets worse when i wear gloves . the previous bike owner installed heated grips , could this be why. When i lubed the chain it the vibration seems to get better..
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
3.9M posts
167.7K members
Since 2002
A forum community dedicated to Triumph Motorcycle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, racing, cafe racers, bobbers, riding, modifications, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!