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T120 oil leak / Brake Squeal

16K views 76 replies 21 participants last post by  lambroving 
#1 ·
Greetings to all. I am new to this forum and previously made this post at the welcome center, but I'm afraid that may have been the wrong place for this level of conversation, so here it is again to ensure visibility.

I took delivery of a new 2016 T120 in early June. While closely inspecting it soon after, I noticed a film of oil on the motor's base pan within the first 100 miles or so. Not enough for a drip, just a film.

I carefully cleaned off the base, and continued using the bike. A few rides later, I checked again, and there was more oil with a small drop on the downward edge of the base. This time it was very clear that the oil was coming from the hole in the center of the base, not the oil filter, or the drain plug. I checked the oil level in the motor and that was satisfactory.

Next step was to notify the dealer. They suggested a closer look when I bring it in for the 500 mile service. That occurred last week.

At the service appointment, the tech. agreed that oil was coming from the hole in the base and phoned a technical consulting resource at Triumph about the issue, as well as the squealing front brake pads.

Triumph's response was to STOP using the bike immediately. It sounded to me as if there was some risk of contaminating the oil with coolant, and that an O-ring or two will need to be replaced. While the dealer's tech. was making every effort to be as helpful as possible, I didn't get the impression he was that familiar with the inner working of this new motor, yet....

What I was told does't seem to jibe with what I had read about a Street Twin owner who apparently experienced the same type of oil leak. In that thread it was apparently a shaft seal on the oil /coolant pump. It would seem to me that O-rings would only serve to seal oil from getting into that "tube" of sorts that runs through the base. I don't believe O-rings are used as shaft seals. It would not surprise me that Triumph knows more about this issue than is getting disclosed to me, at least at this point.

As far as the awful brake squeal, the tech. tried cleaning and scuffing the the pads, didn't work! To address that issue, Triumph is sending new pads. Unless they have changed the design, I anticipate more odd looks from motorists at stoplights, and am prepared to try my own fix with brake pad lube as has been suggested elsewhere on this forum.

In parting, I would suggest new T120, Thruxton, or Street Twin owners occasionally check the base on their machines for oil. Particularly so when Triumph says to "STOP riding the machine immediately". We are long past the days when it was considered normal for motorcycles to drip oil!!!

And by the way, other than these two issues, I think the new water cooled twins are marvelous motorcycles, and agree with so many of the positive comments that I have read from owners on this forum.

So today, the bike sits at the dealership awaiting parts. I will provide further posts as I learn more details about these two issues.

Watch out for left turning vehicles!!!
Thanks,
Gary
 
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#2 ·
Hi, Gary,

It looks like a very little bit of oil is normal at the location you describe. My T120 does the same thing. As far as contaminating the oil with coolant, what do you see when you look through the oil sight glass? Milky engine oil? No? Niether do I, and I figure I'm good to go.

Some T120 front brake pads squeal and some don't. It looks like the factory is assembling the brake calipers without brake pad lube. Removing the pads and lubing their backing plates is an easy job.

Hope this helps!
 
#4 ·
Hi, Gary,

It looks like a very little bit of oil is normal at the location you describe. My T120 does the same thing.
Hmm... I better keep an eye on mine.

As far as I'm concerned there is NO oil leak that's considered "normal" on a modern engine.
 
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#3 ·
For what it is worth, I have had the brake squeal noise...though squeal is an understatement! Sounded like a freight train coming to a halt!

I took the bike on a nice open stretch of road, wound her up, and did some hard braking... noise has all been gone since that day.
 
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#5 ·
T120 oil leak / front brake squeal

Thanks for the comments. Got a call today from the tech. at the dealership.

He said he thoroughly cleaned off the base and inside the "hole" or passage that goes through the base. He then put twenty or so miles on the bike and on return found no oil on the base.

The explanation from Triumph is that the O-rings take some time to "seat" and some oil loss at this point might be normal until the O-rings do seat. And since he found no oil, "lets tentatively consider them seated," and the oil I saw was part of the seating process.

Personally, I remain skeptical, and I fully agree with danketchpel, modern motors should not be leaking oil from the start. I always thought O-rings sealed properly from the start or they didn't, no seating required.

For example, my 2009 H-D Dyna Glide has never, ever leaked ONE drop of oil. Even after disassembly and reassembly for significant performance enhancements after the motor was properly broken in. If H-D can do it, Triumph should be able to.

Regarding the brake squeal, the explanation from Triumph is that perhaps when the bike was prepped for delivery, the tech. failed to remove all of the cosmolene or what ever anti-corrosion coating was applied at the factory prior to shipping and it permeated the pad linings resulting in the squeal. This doesn't make a lot of sense since so many have reported the brake squeal only coming from the front and not the back brakes. They will replace the brake pads under the warranty.

Again, I remain skeptical. I would think brake assemblies ought to be shielded from applications of any anti-corrosion coatings at the factory. I still think, some time before riding season is over, I'll be applying brake pad lube!!

I will provide updates on these two subjects as I add more miles to the odometer.

Thanks again for all of your responses. I enjoy this forum.
And watch out for those left turing vehicles!!!

Gary
 
#6 ·
I lubricated the backing plates of my brake pads and I'm still getting brake squeal. Not sure if I somehow failed to apply the lube improperly or not. I applied a light coating of Plastilube (maybe 1-2mm in thickness) on all surfaces to the rear of each pad and then added some Copper Grease to the caliper slider pins.
 
#7 ·
We see a clear assembly lube that can look like oil after a few heat cycles on most of our new bikes "Especially Rocket III's." They use it to make sure gaskets stay in place but mainly on the valve cover. We have got into a habit of warning our clients about it and that it is harmless. We have also seen Daytona 675's needing the engine bolts tightened after 500 miles. Triumph did warn us in training about those o-rings you spoke of and that it would be normal. As far as the brake concern, we have replaced brake pads under warranty on that bike as well but both where from the Clearwater Beach area. Kind of odd that both issues came from the beach area. Both bikes had sand pitted in the pads and where noisy. Probably coincidence?
 
#11 ·
Is there an actual TSB or recall notice for these T120 squealing brakes? My dealer wont perform free/warranty work on it or address the issue without charging me....
 
#12 ·
Just weighing in that I have the brake squeal pretty bad too. I don't know that it's the brakes though - even when coasting to a stop at the end of a ride there is a rasping or rubbing noise. This is only when the bike heats up, not when cold.

I took the brake pads out, cleaned and greased, then put them back to no avail (maybe a little quieter?). I guess I'll try the hard-stop suggestion, but don't have a lot of hope for that one (probably ignorance on my part - I can't imagine how that would help!).

Been watching videos on how to take apart the brakes completely, but don't want to learn how to bleed the brakes, or have to get tools to do it.

I love my T120, but that front-end noise just mars an otherwise excellent riding experience.
 
#13 ·
For the guys who want to try removing the brake pads on the new T120, can we get a procedure for this? Not a general, for any bike procedure, but specific to this new T120. Im hesitant and annoyed that I might have to do this, but the dealer is resistant to doing the work under warranty. Im curious if I need any special tools, or risk not getting it put back together right and then the whole thing becomes my fault.
 
#15 ·
I just got the new front brake pads for my T120 installed this A.M., under warranty, by my dealer.
No squealing on the way home. As others have mentioned, my original pads squealed only as the bike was nearly stopped, I.E. at very low rotational speed of the front wheel. The tech. said they are the same part number as the original equipment pads, so they are apparently not a new, improved part in response to brake noise complaints. So we'll see if these new pads develop that awful squeal that someone compared to a braking freight train!!!

By the way, I had tried the hard, front brake only stopping procedure numerous times, and the dealer's tech. had resurfaced the pads. None of this made any difference. I was still raising eyebrows at red lights and distracting cell phone users.

Nebraskaboy; I would insist that the dealer address ANY issues with your new machine including the brake squeal. Read your warranty. Disc brakes have been used for a long time, and they should not be making this level of noise. Ask your dealer, "if the rear brakes don't make noise, why should the front ones be allowed to"? And bleeding the brakes should have nothing to do with the squealing. That's only to flush out old fluid after several years or thousands of miles.
When you do need to replace the pads,it's not at all difficult. I've done it on my Harleys numerous times. Carefully study or photo the way they come apart so you can reverse order to reassemble.

Next week, my T120 will be left off at the dealer for the oil leak problem. The tech. thinks that the motor will have to come out of the frame in order to remove the base pan. I have a feeling that on the ride home after this fix, I will be needing those heated grips! All this for what he thinks is a lousy O-ring application. The power plant engineering design team should be embarrassed.

Watch out for those left turning vehicles...

GEB
 
#16 ·
The power plant engineering design team should be embarrassed.

GEB
It's a vendor problem and the vendor will be paying Triumph for the parts and labor..., whether they still have a job as supplier or not. That's the way the biz works.
 
#18 ·
I too tried the hard braking solution, to no improvement. From 45-55 mph down to stop almost as hard as I could pull the brake lever. No squealing during that, but it still squeals that last 5-10 ft of a gradual stop. And it seems to happen only once Ive used the brakes once or twice, at the beginning of a ride/trip somewhere.

SO, Im going to take it in to the dealer and ask for some remedy.
 
#19 ·
I think it was a bad batch of brake pads. What is odd is that they're made by Nissin. Nissin has always been great for me from cars to m/c's but nobody is perfect. I just talked to one of my clients yesterday and he has had no problems since replacement.
 
#20 ·
DaveTT may likely be correct. I had time yesterday to put 51 miles on my new, replacement set of brake pads and I'm pleased to report there was NO squealing!
That 51 miles consisted of a lot of stop and go riding to run errands and a trip into the city. So the brakes got a lot of use.
So, I'm cautiously optimistic since the original set squealed right from the start.

GEB
 
#22 ·
Cobrastyle;

The front brake pads were replaced by the Triumph dealer that I originally purchased the bike from last spring.

Specifically, I asked them if the part number had changed or if they where aware of any changes from the original equipment brake pads that came on the bike. Their response to both questions was; "same part number and no material changes that they knew of".

I now have 135 miles on the new pads and NO squealing,... so far. I think DaveTT is likely correct in suggesting that Triumph received a batch of bad front brake pads.

I would strongly urge anyone with this issue to visit their dealer and insist on a new, replacement set of pads. I made an appointment to have it done, and it took them all of 20 minutes to replace them while I waited. Not a big deal.

Gary
 
#23 ·
Hey Gary thanks for the update and how it went. Ever since I greased the back of the brakes the squeal rarely happens (once or twice in the past few weeks). It wouldn't squeal during the 500 mile service (naturally) so they said it was performing as expected. I'll sit tight for now, but it's nice to know what the next step would be if it comes to that.

Take it easy and thanks again.
 
#24 ·
T120 oil Leak / front brake squeal, update

Greetings,
I just got my T120 back yesterday from the dealer for the oil leak fix. You may recall my T120 was seeping a small but steady amount of oil from the hole in the center of the base pan. The tech. removed the base and replaced two o-rings that are supposed to seal the lower end of the tube (inside the hole) to the base in addition to the base gasket. They test road it several times and no leak. After a meandering 20 mile ride home, because it was such a nice late summer day, I looked under the base,.....Oh $#!)....the oil is just starting to flow out of the hole again.
So I went back to the dealer today and spoke with the tech.
Here is what I learned;

There is a tube inside of the base that runs vertically from the bottom of the crank case to exit through the base pan. Its purpose is to drain any coolant that may leak past the coolant pump shaft seal to the outside of the motor and thus NOT into the oil supply. Apparently this drain tube is a separate part not permanently affixed to either the base or the crankcase, but captured between the base and the crankcase. In doing so it is sealed on both ends with O-rings.

So,.. it seems to me that the two bottom O-rings which are always in contact with motor oil in the base are most likely allowing the leak that I see from the hole. I have several questions for Triumph and the dealer has promised to get me an E-mail address.

First it would seem to me that this tube ought to be welded or brazed permanently into the bottom of the base pan, with O-ring seals only at the top. Secondly, I wonder if the O-rings or perhaps the tube O.D. or the hole I.D. might be incorrect, and thus allowing for a small amount of oil to pass. Thirdly, I wonder if a simple application of some silicone adhesive to the O-rings would solve the problem.

Triumph has told the dealer that some seepage is normal, but it should dry up after a while. I have 950 miles on the bike, and I don't buy this story. In my experience, O-rings either seal correctly from the start or they don't.

I have looked at other 2016 Triumph twins on my dealers showroom floor and they all had an oil film on the base. Recently I visited another dealer who had two demo units, and both had oil on their bases.

It would be very interesting if all of the forum members who own 2016 S.T.'s , T120's , or Thruxtons would check the oil pan base for oil seepage from the hole in the center, and report their findings here.

Thank you,

Gary
 
#26 ·
Thanks for reporting in Tricolour. Good that you have no leak, but check it out once in a while, just in case.
I'd love to hear the rationale for this design from the engineer.

Since all the machines (S.T.'s, T120's, & Thruxton's) being discussed on this part of the forum should still be under warranty, it benefits us all to closely inspect our bikes frequently for any issues that should be corrected under the warranty,and then report it here.

Thanks,

Gary
 
#28 ·
Thanks for your comments Mr. Forchetto.
If Triumph has used this design on previous machines, why can't they get it right on the new motor design??

By the way, I have read that thread that you referred to and have asked BPRider to report on whether the leak was fixed successfully or not by his dealer. To date he has not responded.
I wonder if maybe he gave up and sold the bike?!?

Thanks,

Gary
 
#29 ·
Tuesday, 10/04/2016, I delivered my T120 (with 1100 miles on it) back to the dealer for the second attempt to stop the oil leak from the "weep" port in the base.
This time, Triumph sent a whole new base!
I suggested that they consider adding a little silicone sealant to the O-rings to ensure a complete and lasting seal.
I can't think of any negatives to using silicone on the O-rings, any opinions, pro or con, from viewers would be welcome???

thanks,
Gary
 
#30 ·
I suggested that they consider adding a little silicone sealant to the O-rings to ensure a complete and lasting seal.
I can't think of any negatives to using silicone on the O-rings, any opinions, pro or con, from viewers would be welcome???
A bit dodgy using adhesives inside an engine. The surfaces would have to be extremely clean and oil-free for the silicone to work, and if they reassembled without fully curing the stuff, as they'd have to do for the seal to seat properly, any surplus could drop off and block an oilway.
 
#32 ·
Got my T120 back to day for the 2nd base oil leak repair. After the dealer installed new O-rings, with a silicone sealer, rode it for 50 miles through several heat cycles, he declared it fixed.
I picked it up, and rode it for another 30 miles or so, and the oil is leaking through the hole in the base again.
The only thing I can figure is there must be another source for the oil above the top of the tube.
On one thread someone (Mr. Forchetto??) mentioned that the oil pump shaft is at the other end of the water pump shaft, and that a bad seal on the oil pump shaft is a possible oil leak source. My tech. does not think this is possible, so he and his triumph Tech. will put their heads again tomorrow!
How discouraging....

Gary
 
#33 ·
On one thread someone (Mr. Forchetto??) mentioned that the oil pump shaft is at the other end of the water pump shaft, and that a bad seal on the oil pump shaft is a possible oil leak source. My tech. does not think this is possible, so he and his triumph Tech. will put their heads again tomorrow!
How discouraging....
This one? discussion on the combined water and oil pump starts on post 13:

http://www.triumphrat.net/water-cooled-twins-technical-talk/716609-oil-leak-on-street-twin-2.html

The dealer should take a look at his service manual to learn what that tube and sump hole are for. One or two owners have had the entire pump assembly changed already.
 
#34 ·
With the experiences in mind that you've mentioned above, I suggested that to the dealer the first trip in for the oil leak.
Apparently the tech. and his Triumph technical consultant were convinced it was simply O-rings.

Thanks again,

Gary
 
#35 ·
The dealer's tech and Triumph have agreed to replace the oil pump.
I guess you just have to expect that Dealer's technical people will be on the learning curve for a while when any new design comes out, such as these new Triumphs.
And of course Triumph is still sorting out a lot of issues too, no doubt.

Gary
 
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