Triumphrat

trav13

having the same issue with my 05 bonneville right now. The bike is at the dealer again. First the pick up coil was changed and that didnt fix it. Only cuts out or dies when the bike is really warm or in traffic.

mongo76

I have a 2007 Scrambler that is doing exactly what is happening here on some of these bikes.I took it to the dealer (Cascade Moto classics) (great dealer by the way).I left it for three weeks and of course it wouldn't do it again and they couldn't duplicate the problem.
Oh the problem? Riding along and it just stops running.For no appearant reason.I thought at first it was because when I hit a bump or in a curve or on an off ramp it also died.Well I couldn't get it to do it again.So I wasn't sure why or what is causeing this.
So the dealer thinks it is the little black box under the seat( little black box just ahead of the rear fender.)Because I am a rather large heavy O.K. Fat rider, he thinks my weight is what is causing pressure on the box.
I was thinking that there are others out there with the same issue and there are others.(I am still heavy, but I'll bet some of you are not and this isn't why this is happening.)
Lets talk just scramblers for now. I do not think I need nology coils or what ever yet (I thought that was a issue on early tripples)
So the dealer told me that this box used to fail all the time when it was mounted closer to the engine and heat was killing it.So Triumph moved it under the seat where it would stay cool?(Sorry I don't think that was the best place but I am not an engeneer either).
So back to the dealer,He/they think my big fat butt is warping the seat and putting pressure on the black box.Thinking I am sitting right about where the strap is and I sit in the middle of the stock seat.I thought it was a weight issue, but it is a placement of weight issue according to them.
So the fix?
Well they wanted to make a guard to keep pressure off of the box.I think that is't going to look like something that Triumph would have designed or done from the factory so I looked at the situation and asked them if it is just the clearance that is needed.
(Oh yea it is hitting the seat,there just isn't enough clearance under there) (we used some yellow grease paint and it left contact points where it touches)So I thought that takeing a heat gun and warming up the seat pan(melting it) enough to push on it and then pour cold water on it after it moves in enough to get the clearance needed, the cold water causes it to take a set.
That gives it the clearance it needs to keep seat pressure away from the little black box, if you push it in far enough.
Plus I also noticed a plastic cast rib(right towards the rear of the seat pan where it pushed down on the wires, where they enter the "littl black box". It pushes down on the wires that plug into the box. So I took a razor blade and removed the middle of it so it will not touch the wires anymore.I cut the middle out of it leaving both sides intact just case it is supposed to keep pressure off the wires witch it was not doing.

Well the first "Fix" that the dealer tried, they used a piece of wood in a press and tried to hold it after it was heated up, but it didn't give it enough clearance.So after my bike had been there for three weeks I wanted to ride it.
So I showed up (after several call that they made to me trying to diagnose the problem) and wanted to know what I could do to help get my bike to have the problem again, since they were not haveing any success in achiveing that goal.

I guess I sort of got ahead of myself here, talking about what was done after I rode it.

Well I rode around 80 miles and it just wouldn't die.So we're fixed right... Yah hoo I hope so!
I was ready to write the thank you e-mail and all that,but held off and put another 7-800 miles on it and Crap it dies again.

It will start every time, just pull in the clutch and hit the starter.Not much fun or very safe when passing a large truck on a two lane highway with oncoming traffic and it dies and you have to pull off that manuver.( Yes it happened to me and thankfully I wasn't making any dangerous passes where I would not have had enough time to get it restarted or slam the brakes and get back behind the truck) not to mention all the other unpleasant times this dangerious situation has happened.It is one thing to be pokeing along on a city street with no trafic at 25 mph, but if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time this is very dangerious to have happening.Worse yet it is intermittant and you just don't know when to expect it to happen.

So I hope this might help some others.
If all the other fixes work that is great.(Nology coils,die-electric grease,checking coils covers connections and all what ever is fine)
But I am pretty darn sure that the little black box under the seat is getting hot or pushed on, and the conections or the guts inside are shorting out for a split secound causeing the bike to stop running.I hope that is what is happening.I think the extra clearance is the solution to the problem.

This would/should be something that Triumph can do very easily on the next batch of seat pans and it will not cost much more than a retool of the pan dies.(Most likely very expensive) so they will let it go til someone gets hurt or killed when their bike dies in a inopertune time and they get run over or worse.Hopefully someone at Triumph will see this is a fixable problem and issue a seat recall after they cast more clearance into the seat pan.(Triumph already bought a new seat for my bike since the dealer is thinking that it was warped)

I have had some really close calls and I want to get this solved as it is a rideability issue and a Saftey issue!
Not just some garbage electrical parts.

Colin_In_Ottawa

Hi Mongo, just to clarify, your bike is now OK or is it still stalling since doing the seat pan modification?
(You lost me at one point)
My bike has had 2 or 3 bouts of hiccuping/bucking at speed, stalling at stops but only when riding with a passenger. Never just with me on the bike. I saw marks where my seat touches the igniter module too and wondered about doing some mods as well.

mongo76

Colin_In _ Ottwa,

Sorry I confused you I confuse Myself some times.

The problem started several months ago and the dealer could not get it to repeat the issue.

So #1) I left the bike for three weeks and they did a bunch of checking and changing stuff and could not find the problem or get it to repeat the engine stalling/dieing issue.

#2) I came up to try and get it to die/stall and I could not get it to do that either.I want my bike back before it sits all summer and the season to ride is over!
#3) I was told they wanted to replace the seat with a new one and build a guard to protect the "Black Box"
#4) I thought a better idea would to heat up the seat pan and push it towards the cover/padding to give the "Black Box" more clearance, help it stay cooler, and prevent pressure from my butt if it is "flexing the seat pan" and causing the problem.(I really do not think it was/is the problem, however it may cause the clearance to be reduced /or "Heat from my butt maybe coming through and heating up the "Black box". A note of caution, if your Wife /Girlfriend has a hot Butt, maybe you shouldn't take her on your Triumph until this issue is fixed.(The owners manual will say no hot Butted ladys as it my kill engine do to overheating the "black box" under the seat!)I'd better stop before the moderators kill my post....
#5) Before they(the dealer) "Modiffied" the seat pan, I rode the bike like I normally would ride for 150 miles and around three hours and it didn't even hiccup once.So what ever they did previously I figgured had "fixed" the issue and I was on my way.I didn't know what "fixxed it but it didn't die anymore so I am Happy.
#6) But just to be on the safe side I wanted them to melt the seat pan and push it away from the "Black box" just in case it was a issue also.So that was the last thing done to it at the dealer.
#7) I took the bike home the next day after they modified the seat pan and rode it for around 700-800 miles over the next few weeks and it ran perfect withpout any issues at all !!!!I was pretty sure all was fixed and was just getting ready to write my thank you note e-mail and...... then it started again.
#8) We had put yellow grease paint on the corners and edges of the "Black Box" so if the "Modified" seat pan started touching the "Black box" it would leave evidence.It did and it was touching the box.After it started the first stalling episode I pulled the seat and saw the paint on the pan.
So I reinstalled the seat with out doing anything to it,or the "black box" or any of the conections.
#9) I am getting ready to do my 12,000 mile valve adjustment,Tires,oil etc.The bike has only 11,000 miles and I wanted to get another thousand on it real fast, so I have been rideing it alot more than my other bikes , (rather than switching on and off of my new Super Motard R --LC-8 950 KTM ) or another one of my bikes.
So any how I though that I would have to re-do the seat pan, but even though I figured the bike might die on me,once or twice since it already has once again....boy was I wrong yesterday I rode around a 140 miles and it died at least 10-15 times(Sometimes about every minute or mile or two,) and a couple times that it I was in a pass or in traffic with talagating cars behind me that almost ran over me from behind......The ride was over..... and all I wanted was to get home alive and I was hopeing that I wasn't going to be left stranded on the side of the road!
Needless to say I was very upset yesterday, thus my post was as scrambled as I was......
#10) Yesterday I took a heat gun and heated the pan enough to press it in and away from the "Black Box" around a 1/4 inch.
I did not touch anything else.I just melted the seat pan.
I remounted the seat.I didn't even wash the bike thinking it may affect my "test".( I am an anally clean bike washer and my bikes always are washed and garraged and I try to keep that showroom "New" look all through the bikes life ,even on my dualsports, and yes I ride the heck out of all my bikes!)

#11) So today I went out for a ride.I just got in after a 150 mile ride at all speeds,today it is around 70-80 degrees. So not a exccedingly hot day but not cold either.

My conclusion at this time is: That the jury is still out......BUT MY BIKE RODE SPECTACULAR AS IT ALWAYS DOES NEVER EVEN HICCUPED ONCE! Was just a perfect day and I will be on "Billy Jack" first thing tommorrow to get some more mileage! I will post as soon as I get to the 12,000 sevice miles or if it stalls/dies!

I suspect that the seat pan clearance IS the reason that the bike(s) are stalling and causing the engine to die. I don't think it is a loose conection issue.The reason for that is, if it was, everytime you hit a pot hole /railroad track/etc. at any speed, it should die or at least hiccup.(My bike won't)
Also it seems that it will die on a smooth stretch as often as in a curve or after a bump, thus leading me to believe, that it is a clearance issue and I think it is related to HEAT.My understanding from the dealer is that Triumph moved/relocated these "black boxes" to this position under the seat, as the were by the engine somewhere else before this location .And he said the heat was "cooking" them and Triumph was tired of replacing them all the time.
I also need to mention on my seat pan there is a plastic "Ribb" that is around three inches long and it crosses the wires that come into the "black box" from the rear.I took a razor blade and "notched out the middle so it will no longer push down on the wires where they are going into the "black box". If your seat has it, it is real obvious and I could see a mark. (pressure line across the wires protective sleeve) So I concluded that it might possibly put some "pressure on the wires" and sort of "pull" them out towards the rear of the bike.
I really don't think that this is the main problem. I think that when two people are on the seat or one heavy person (like me) that it reduces a already too small of clearance issue and the "Box" heats up inside ans it shuts off or kills the engine.This might be to "protect the box" I don't know. I just know my engine stalls and I have to pull in the clutch and hit the starter to get it to start.I also know this is really a dangerious situation and given the wrong set of circumstances it could be fatal.I thankfully have always been able to get safely going again and I hope you(all of you with this problem do also) but I really think Triumph needs to issue a recall on these seats /and or modify the existing ones and start making the new ones differently to solve this issue.
Hopefully they will after I ride around a thousand miles with out it haveing any problem I will post again or start a new thread.
I am planning on contacting Triumph about this and I hope they will address this issue in a fasion that is satisfactory for all of us that are concerned before someone is killed when their bike "Dies" in traffic before they can pull off a "restart"

Oh and one last tip if you do decide to "modify" your seat pan.(I think you should, as I am pretty certain it will solve this problem) Get another person to help you and be careful not to "ignite your plastic seat pan" as some heat guns are just like a solder iron and one of mine will get up to 1450 watts.I used a Milwakee brand and I used the 1000 watt setting.
Heat up the pan do not touch the plastic with you bare skin(hands) as it will stick and produce nasty burns.
I used a Stanely metal thermos jug with the staineless coffee cup attached and pressed down in four spots and poured cold water to make the plastic take a "Set" as it kept wanting to "remember" the way it was and would rebound back to its original shape.
Your might want to get a helper and your "helper" can push the plastic (with what ever you deem suitable) and you can run the heat gun keeping the plastic seat pan pliable as necessary to shape the cavity and then pour the cold water and it will set, Mop it up/out with a rag/towel and if you need more clearance re-heat again. Go slowly so as not to ruin your seat pan/seat and remember not to go to far or you'll deform the pan so much it will make the foam inside hard/brittle and or make a bump that you don't want showing up on the top side of the seat cover.
I think this a easy modification but don't try it if you are not sure.
(like if you do not already own a heat gun..good excuse to buy one) but be sure to melt some plastic milk juggs or something for some practice if your not sure...
I also think that some modelers clay made into a pancake and set over the "black box'" and "pinched " between the seat pan will give you an exact measurement of your clearance and after you modify it you can reapply this technique to see how much clearance you have achived.

Good luck,,,or maybe make your Triumph dealer do this if he still can't figure out how to fix your bike to get it to stop the engine from dieing.

Colin_In_Ottawa

Well it's worth a try at least... I have some modelling clay here somewhere. I'm going to see how much clearance there really is.
You are not the first to post this issue/cause. There was another post some time ago about it but it was never "resolved" whether or not it was the fix.
Thanks for the clarification.

bobmig

VERY interesting stuff! Just this week I also had a problem with my '05 Bonnie stumbling/losing power/sputtering/etc after about 20 minutes on the road (though it never actually quit). The bike is going in for diagnosis on Monday, but after reading Mongo's and Colin's posts I ran a little experiment. First I determined if and where the seat was pressing on the igniter by smearing a bit of chap-stick on the igniter's edges. Yes, the seat does rest on the igniter proper (but not on the connector). Rather that deform the seat pan I took some pieces of a paint stir stick (about 5/32" - 3.5mm) thick and taped them to the frame where the closest rubber pads touch. The seat pan no longer touched the igniter.


Now... what does this prove?
1) The seat pan does indeed sit on and probably press on the igniter.
2) the seat can be shimmed up a bit so as to alleviate this. If I were doing it seriously, I think I would look for small rubber or maybe felt discs of the proper thickness and attach them to the seat's rubber pads.
3) The 2" (50mm) rib on the seat pan aft of the igniter does not seem to contact anything.

Now that we know that the seat sits on the igniter, it has to be determined whether this, in fact, does affect the igniter's proper operation. I have no idea how you would do this, and so I'll leave this part of the research for someone more clever than I.
Bob

mongo76

bobmig idea useing paint sticks is sort of what the dealer wanted to do to my bike.They wanted to take two big washers or spacers and use different bolts where the igniter box is bolted and replace those bolts and put a piece if strap iron(like the paint stick but permanent mounted)

The only thing I can say is my bike has not died stalled. (Yet ....after a 150 mile ride and I have one planed for today , and I'll post after that ride)
Then engine has not had to be restarted since I heated the seat pan and gave it clearace so weather it is heat or pressure?But I think something is happening when the seat presses on the box.

mongo76

I rode about 100 miles today without any trouble.
I am pretty sure this has fixed my "issue". but I want to put alot more rides/miles in because I was fooled before. But the reason my bike was "fixed" before wasn't really known,becase so many things were done at the time we couldn't be sure what really "fixed" the problem.
The one good thing this time around is that all I did this time was remove the seat and melt a clearance area so the igniter box woud not touch and have more "cooling" space. I also notched that ribb that I thought might "press" on the igniter boxes wire harness as it enters the box.
But That is it. I didn't do anything else so if this "solves" my problem I can be sure it is't because of anything else I did by "accident"

I want to put the modelers clay betweem the seat and box. Now that I have relieved the seat material away from the box I would like to be sure it is far enough away so it can't/won't hit it again.

I hope to get out tommorrow and add some more miles on another good ride.

If I can figure out the method to post some pictures on what I did I will even though I didn't take before pictures the after ones will show what I did.

Colin_In_Ottawa

I had some time to kill today...
Modified my seat pan and built a guard from aluminium bar that goes over the igniter at the area of least clearance. At least I will know the next time that I have a passenger that is the bike starts to hiccup again, it won't be from any pressure on the igniter.
Mine never acted up when I have ridden solo but has done it two out of the last 3 rides with a passenger. We shall see.

mongo76

I put around 325 miles on Friday the 12th of Sept. and was really getting confidant that I have solved my problem with the bike stalling, then having to pull in the clutch and hit the starter to get going again.
Anyway I was getting near the 400 mile mark(accumlitive over the last few rides) with out even a hicup.Then my bike did it again.No bumps on the road or anything, but it was a hot day and I had been stretching around on the saddle after a couple hours I needed a little different position.
Anyway it died three times and I was/am just bewildered as to what is the problem?
But today I took the seat off to get ready to do my 12,000 mile service, valve check, etc And I to my well, I don't know why, but to my delight and supprise there was paint again on my seat pan where we had put the grease paint.
I guess I didn't relieve it far enough on one spot and it had transfered paint where it was hitting on the igniter box.
So I had my friend help me heat the seat and we took a big socket and pushed the pan further away.
I hope I have it far enough!
I still will get some clay and use it to see how far I have relieved it,but for now I hope it is fixed and I am pretty sure the seat touching/pressing on the box IS the cause of this intermittant problem.
I also will post some pictures of my Seat fix soon.