Triumphrat

SPARKSS · 03-25-2008

Howdy all. I'm a new Triumph owner (0km on a 07 Bonneville....waiting for the snow 'n ice to go) but a bike owner for 20+ years. As a biker who's always done his own work and a professional mechanic and electronics tech, I've always valued good and accurate information, which is why the first option I got was the factory service manual and have been going over it closely this winter. What I don't find in it, is anything significant regarding the ignition system - no strategies, component information, values or waveforms to assist in understanding and troubleshooting. No mention of whether there's any onboard or accessible diagnostics or programming capability, or any tools to do so.
I can't believe that a factory tech would find this of much use and wonder if anyone out there has a link or lead to such, or can recommend a comprehensive manual or source for this or other "lightly covered" info in the manual? I've been researching whether there are independent or factory professional trade type publications that might be available to train on the Triumph new twins but so far have come up empty.

I've used Haynes and Clymers manuals in the past when I couldn't get a factory manual and suffice to say they were filled with my own notes. Nuff said. I noticed a previous thread regarding "manuals" was shut down for some reason not-comprehended by me.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks - Gord

sweatmachine · 03-25-2008

welcome to the forum!

Please acquaint yourself to the search function. There should be MANY threads on the manuals.

dryheat · 03-25-2008

I'm wondering why my thread was closed? I had started the other "repair manuals" thread. Sparkss - check out the other thread there were some good comments about the manuals... I understand the "pirated" link thing but the user had removed it. Oh well, let's just keep this one going.

PAAS · 03-25-2008

Gord,

I think you'll struggle to find the kind of info on the ignition system you're looking for. As you've found, it's not in the Triumph workshop manual. It's not in the Haynes either. I'm not aware of any other manuals. The ignition system is very basic on these bikes as you have probably gathered. There's just the input from the pick-up coil and the TPS (which provides some advance control, but not so much as you would notice if you disconnected it!) and a rev-limiter. There's no connector for attaching diagnostic gear as far as I'm aware and the ECU is not readily re-programmable in the way many that control EFI are. There is a chap from Sweden (Jojje) who lurks around here from time to time who may be able to give you more detail as he can at least modify the rev-limiter function.

SPARKSS · 03-25-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by PAAS

Gord,

I think you'll struggle to find the kind of info on the ignition system you're looking for. As you've found, it's not in the Triumph workshop manual. It's not in the Haynes either. I'm not aware of any other manuals. The ignition system is very basic on these bikes as you have probably gathered. There's just the input from the pick-up coil and the TPS (which provides some advance control, but not so much as you would notice if you disconnected it!) and a rev-limiter. There's no connector for attaching diagnostic gear as far as I'm aware and the ECU is not readily re-programmable in the way many that control EFI are. There is a chap from Sweden (Jojje) who lurks around here from time to time who may be able to give you more detail as he can at least modify the rev-limiter function.

Hi Paul.......I'll reply to yours as a reply to all so far. Yes I've searched the Triumph Ratnet site with respect to manuals (and extensively elsewhere) and haven't found, obviously, what I think is out there. The ignition system, as a combination of basic parts, does perform a basic task with not a lot of input other than crank pickup and TPS (I assume to retard timing upon abrupt opening and perhaps hold advanced upon rapid closing....based on my automotive experience). Reason I wondered about programming or diagnostics is the inclusion of a wire to pin 16 of the ignitor (confirmed as being on my bike) which is undocumented in the manual as far as I can see. It would be helpful to me, as a diagnostic aid to understand what the advance map is and, other than RPM and probably TPS, what influences it. I wonder if dwell is limited or controlled to limit coil saturation (and is the module protected by a shorted coil or primary wiring). What are the minimum and maximum supply voltages for the system to allow operation and before destruction? Out of curiousity, I wonder if the 270 degree ignitor is the same as the 360 degree unit.....with pin 14 merely unused in the 360 degree harness? On the surface I'd think the switching for the 270 degree ignitor would forego switching each coil twice (not required) but if it does, then it seems that both could be interchangeable. The crank pickup seems to be a basic mag-reluctance type unit and as such it would be good to know the specs for resistance and output voltage/waveform during cranking or at some specific RPM. I'd like to know what the design resistance vs rotation is for the TPS and what bias or V-ref voltage should be seen between both ends of the element (and what should be seen on the sig out line at closed/open throttle).

It just seems that, for something that can let you down, or cause engine operating problems, that more detail would be part of any service manual or training or professional information.

(reason for posting with the same header is probably obvious now).

At any rate.......I'll be glad to share whatever I have or have found so far.

Gord

Baltobonneville · 03-25-2008

The other thread might have been shut down because of the link to the guy who sells probably illegal pirated CD copies of the Triumph manual.

sweatmachine · 03-25-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltobonneville

The other thread might have been shut down because of the link to the guy who sells probably illegal pirated CD copies of the Triumph manual.

yes, that's why it was deleted.

After checking with the other moderators, ANY DOWNLOADABLE TRIUMPH MANUAL IS PIRATED

I don't know about you guys, but I have a serious personal issue with buying pirated material, not to mention the shadyness of giving credit card info to known theives. How would you like to go to work tomorrow and not get paid?

bonza · 03-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweatmachine

yes, that's why it was deleted.

After checking with the other moderators, ANY DOWNLOADABLE TRIUMPH MANUAL IS PIRATED

I don't know about you guys, but I have a serious personal issue with buying pirated material, not to mention the shadyness of giving credit card info to known theives. How would you like to go to work tomorrow and not get paid?

what if it's downloadable for free?

sweatmachine · 03-26-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonza

what if it's downloadable for free?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweatmachine

ANY DOWNLOADABLE TRIUMPH MANUAL IS PIRATED

I'm sorry, was there some grey area there?

PAAS · 03-26-2008

Gord,

I don't think even factory trained Triumph mechanics have access to that kind of detail. If they do, they don't know how to use it to diagnose faults in the ignition system. On more than one occasion I've seen posts from despairing owners describing an ignition related fault that their dealer doesn't seem to be able to find. After being pointed in the right direction by somebody here and prodding their dealer, they usually find it's the ignition coil, sometimes the pickup sensor, and occasionally the ECU itself. They don't find this out by doing what you and I would call diagnosis using appropriate test gear. They just reluctantly swap bits until it's fixed! I've never seen this kind of info on this site or TNBF and I would have thought it would have come up before if it was available. Don't let that stop you looking though!

The ignition coil and ECU (not sure about the pickup sensor) are manufactured by these people - http://www.gill.co.uk/ Perhaps they can help? The TPS comes with the carbs. As you may have read in the Triumph manual, Triumph say that if it goes bad or you disturb its positioning, you need new carbs(!). However, I believe you may be able to get specs for the TPS from the Keihin distributor. If my TPS went bad I would just disconnect it from the loom without removing it. As an experiment I disconnected mine - I couldn't tell the difference. Also, plenty of people fit other carbs without a TPS and don't seem to miss it.