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Questioning point of removing O2 sensors

8K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  Motley 
#1 ·
Last year I did all of the TTP#3 mods, which includes removing the O2 sensor. Back a year or two ago, the the conventional wisdom -- since refuted -- was that the O2s only worked in the first 6% of throttle opening. Apparently not true.

My 2013 Bonneville is running a little worse each day (and, yes, I am going through all the possible causes for that). But I still wonder if the engine is "running blind" without its O2s and that may be contributing to its rich-running condition.

Any thought specifically on this O2 issue? I cut the wires taking them out but wonder if I should take the $$ hit and get new ones and re-map to show them back in the loop.
 
#2 ·
I have been running without the O2's for 5 years now without issue (I am not running a TTP tune tho).... There is another post about someone else with the TTP #3 tune having issues with mileage and poor performance... maybe something went wacky when it was loaded? Try reloading the tune.

My bike has this weird thing where if I reload the tune over itself (whether or not I make a change to it), it runs like utter crap! If I load a previous tune then load my current tune, it runs perfectly.... :confused: Just a little something to keep in mind if you get into reloading it....
 
#3 ·
I have the same bike. Have had no issues with the tune or having the sensors out. When I mess around with tunes and tune ECU I am very picky with it. I put the battery tender on for about 15 mins first while taking out the fuse for the headlight. I even reset adaption a couple of times before starting it after loading a tune. I even reset adaption after changing spark plugs. It's probably unnecessary for me to go all crazy like that, but then again I'm having no issues either.
 
#4 ·
I still have my 02’s and haven’t decided if/when they’ll be taken out together with doing TTP#3 mods.

But in your situation whats the point in going backwards. Somethin’ ain’t right. Have you contacted TTP to get another copy or an updated copy of your tune ? With Tuneloader I understood (may be wrong) you could log in to TTP’s place every once in a while and get updates ?

In questioning removal of O2 sensors ? With late model Bonnie 865cc IMO its all about getting a nice kick in the ass by doing some pretty easy mods.
 
#5 ·
If your engine is running worse each day that points to a developing problem.
Without O2 sensors it is "running blind" in that it cannot tell when the mixture is supposed to be 14.7:1 but that only happens under certain specific conditions and it is running blind the rest of the time with narrow band sensors anyway.
The other area where it is blind is when it come to the adaption process so it won't adapt to injectors which may be at the extremes of their design limit (or beyond) but if this was a developing problem (changing daily) would you really want to adapt to it? Of course not, you'd want to find out what was going on and why adaption was necessary.
 
#7 ·
No, without O2 sensors, it is not "running blind". it works according of the injection tables (and ignition table), which are piloted by the others sensors (RPM, TPS, air température, manifold air pressure, ...)
We must not forget that most of the time the ECU operates in open loop, ie without considering the O2 sensors

I haven't removed my O2 sensors , because if I have fuelling or vacuum problems I can use the sensors as a diagnostic aid, ie running rich or weak on 1 or 2 cyls.
No, you can't use your O2 sensors as a diagnostic because it's narrow band sensors. If it was wideband sensors you could, but in the present case outside a lambda value of 0.95 to 1.05 you will see nothing. Anything you will see is 0.2V or 1V because it varies too quickly.
 
#9 ·
Back to basic fun'duh'mental case is this case right here

Well, I have jumped in nort's camp. He pretty much mentions the flip-flop happening in the fueling/ign dept.
Remember, a sensor fails AS IN FALLS OUT OF THE LOOP, a backup/fail-safe/limp mode/check engine light occurs 'to save the engine from damage.'
Computer flip is flopped to a preset setting. So it's: 14.7/101.3/1 atm/760mmHg still means the penultimate number for 'backup' to continue computing the final output signal.
As nortumph has stated, flop goes the backup maps against the no-input-analog failed sensor. The computer recalc's to digital (760mmHg) is one number being the constant input, not many analog 0.95v to 1.05v are the argument numbers in analog.

You now run in limp (not at FULL POWER) is the analog is down, a backup has kept the bike running.
760mmHg = If the atmo sensor (open loop) or 02 sensor (closed loop) fail, this number is the backup for processing a downed analog signal.
30°C = If the intake air temp sensor fails, this number is the backup, etc.
80°C = If the water temp sensor fails, this too has its own calc number to process.
TPS = If the throttle position sensor fails, a 'method' kicks in and controls the low to mid range.
IAP = If the intake air pressure sensor fails a 'method' handles the mid to WOT range.

Your basic fundamental moves for both loops are called upon when the 'analog fails.'

Analog = Many. Said another way... 001001001010110100101011
Digital = One. Said another way... 0000000000000000000000000(OFF), or 11111111111111111(ON).

I am handcuffed to the processor, the chip, the flip-flop, the ROM, RAM, and finally the truth tables calling the final calc. I may not know the product, but I sure as hell know my way around a closed and open loop system to be dangerous. I'll catch you on your abstract where mine is in the absolute. Go ahead, change 14.7 and see if man is not handcuffed to that number is the processor's = X. Now, Y up with water and air temps and low and behold it calcs in analog as it calcs in digital.

We on the same page yet? .... You limp city slickers not in FULL mode but in FOOL MODE! So freak'inn 'Blind' you can't see it... LOLOLOLOL :relax



Signed,
NOLTT

:Dang:laughhard
 
#11 ·
Lost

I've lost this thread to the geek squad.

:smile2:
 
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#17 ·
Because for diagnostics you need wide band sensors or gas analyser. With a narrow band sensor, beetween 14.2:1 and 15.2:1 you can see a coherent voltage (lambda 0.97 to 1.03) if RPM and engine load are stabilized, but for all other value you can't deduce anything.
 
#23 ·
Ee, bah gum lad... no it int..

Ah wor skennin’ in a plumber’s winder
As Ah traipsed along on t’street
When me een wor caught wi’ a breet display
O’ t’latest bathroom suite.
T’colour wor sooart o’ pinky puce,
T’taps wor gowd an’ t’bath wor rahnd
By ‘eck it wor a stunner!
It cost a thahsand pahnd!

Wesh basin wor shaped like a scallop shell
Deep enuf ter sink a fleet in,
Ther wor t’toilet, an’ summat Ah cudn’t mek out
Ah think it were ter wesh yer feet in!
Ah thowt ‘ow this luxury aw’ could be mine
If nobbut Ah ‘ad the dough,
An’ Ah smiled as Ah thowt o’ t’contrast
Wi’ bathneets o’ long ago.

Frida’ neets, Mam’d mek t’fire up
Wi’ plenty o’ wood an’ coil,
Fill up t’big pans wi’ watter
An’ set ‘em on ter boil.
Then, out o’ t’wesh-house she’d fetch t’tin bath
An’ set it on t’owd pegged rug,
Then each on us bairns’d be lathered in turn,
In t’kitchen ser warm an’ snug.

Clean ‘jamas wor waitin’ on t’oven dooar,
As we splashed an’ laiked in t’tub,
‘Til Mam’d say, “Let’s be ‘avin’ yer!
It’s tahm fer a rub-a-dub-dub!”
Then, cocoa an’ parkin curled up bi t’fire,
In a sleepy, shinin’ glow.
Aye! Ah’d swap aw them fancy bathroom suites
Fer a bathneet o’ long ago!


 
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#24 ·
Awright geeezzaa! An Englishman takin' a barf ? Thee could 'ave fooled me ! Sorted mate.

(isn't it great that such a wide variety of lads, of every trade and persuasion, are jumping into this thread ? !);)
 
#31 ·
If you follow a bike's FI system, some are sent to euro as being setup with an 02. Western models are setup with an atmo sensor. We now have an elevation problem maybe. It would probably work with the intake having the same vac sucked on that sensor. With data being entered from coolant temp/intake pull/air temp/tps, and that intake pull having less to pull, I more fear the ignition curve than the fuel trim; no matter what altitude.

In the hacking days mind you; I've heard enough piston knock, seen enough dome damage, aluminum melt on the porcelain tip of the spark plugs: I have one sensor out of the loop. That means one wire. The other is ground and that means one has to be hot is wire in and wire out.

If I think simple 02 with only 2 wires, one is ground and the other heads up to the ECU. The 02 becomes hot/cooled by that coiled wire sending up an analog signal of how fast the one coiled wire is affected by HEAT - disturbs molecules - causing elec/mag converted to a length of time in the DTT. LOL

Next comes the communication in a wave that starts-peaks-discharges a square wave of 1's and 0's. So the time it cools then heats up, the coil inside the 02 is CHEMICALLY changing the unit is handcuffed to. So analog she goes. Who cares about a 5 wire 02 that heats itself up as both feed off of that same principal of HCM.

My basics tells me I have an analog sensor that sends in many different square waves off that 02. The what happens now kicks in and the flip has flopped. So magnetically speaking; those 2 wires off the 02 were holding a flipflop. It had access to the FULL POWER mapping. It is a complicated wiring job so all these systems are in a magnetic lock and those 4 combinations can close one and feed another.

If you can follow that, say we can turn the code light off at the dash is connect those two wires with a ohm resistor. The fatter the better is back to HEAT. I create a short I more rather use this as the fuse. Forget me using some sort of math to cause something to go off, like I need a math'd resistor to reset? ... and the theory of the abstract stops right there. Why? Because if I've followed the simple steps, any resistor is going to cause a single number and not an analog number. Get it so far?

I am back to my 4 moves I flip my wrists and match pinkie or thumb, etc. I have turned off the light, but the analog flips to a backup map. So on my ape, I pull the 02 and ran the bike to watch the AFR. The needle read the same. So 14a and change is the bottom line for both loops. Which brings me back to the hack you are attempting. The other part of how the parts work in the abstract is the walk of the: input-processing-output.

Said another way: analog-digital-analog. Part for part says: rheostat-ECU-throttle plate at any (analog) angle matches fueling. But dropping the 02 out of the loop is: digital-digital-analog. See it now in the walk? The next step is a pig or a fueling rig like a powcomder pc5. I use the 02 hole for the AFR meter, run autotune, I set the AFR, auto does the rest. I have not touched, flashed, cried for a new map on line, Threw flash over map of the OE is it?

My abstract now takes the lost 02 the gained pc as: digital-digital-analog-digital-analog. Said another way: resitor-ECU-Injector-PC5auto-injector's [any] AFR # of your choosing. As the setup goes:

1. I can pull an 02 and ride safe.
2. I can tape over the code light with a decal.
3. I can run an ohm resistor or a bent paper clip for the flip to turn off the light fandango.
4. I can pc up and run auto to any AFR for economy or performance.
5. I can run a second map, disable autotune, use this as a lean is mean map I run altitude work say.
6. I can yank the pc off, pull the resistor, plug the 02 back in>>> no harm no foul.

:ChequeredFlag FOR RACING PURPOSES ONLY

Signed,
NOLTT
 
#33 ·
Again, each sensor has its own 'balanced' value. The unit works within a given range. Move the TPS and it codes out of range. Book would say; 'at closed throttle, this is the target number, and at WOT, this is the spec number at this position; adjust sensor till you read both ends that fall within its own 'balanced' [target] range.'

Said another way; a sensor is built with a preset given resistance. I'd have to increase the crank sensor's coil windings to increase the milli is called: a resistance between wire in and wire out of that sensor. Each sensor has to fall withing a specific 'milliamp range'; when it is pinged back and forth (AC = for every reaction/reaction) is the monitoring of that value. If said value is 'out of range'; the constant ping is looking for a given value within spec or it codes [flipflops] to safety.

Only 2 moves inside that black box is either on or off = 1 or 0.

You'd have to revise the milliamp values throughout the box. It's all about balanced components manufactured within a given spec to the total formula. So say we up the amps to the 02 from .01v to .09v is now 1.2v and boom, out of range of that 'under 1 volt window.' The same can be said I up any amp value to the sensor, the rest hits the truth tables and bingo = LIMP!

So bottom line you cannot change the formula of its required range is how the system is built. Or said another way, I'm going to up the amps on a toaster. My browning knob is a rheostat and is closed down totally. It still comes up as a black piece of carbon, no longer toasted bread... I changed amperage against the balanced formula is ohm's law building that toaster = Handcuffed to Formula. See where I'd have to use a different rheostat to lower the burn rate? See where I'd have to change the coils to take that extra heat? See where I'd have to change the hard parts so this resistor can up the current? See how you'd have to swap out the hard parts for an increase in value [voltage] changes?

You are so handcuffed to 'Formula' of that magnetism of E.
You are so handcuffed to 12v is the one system.
You are so handcuffed to the 5v system.
You are dropping 1 wire out of the loop is the same as saying; do not touch the toaster parts or else!

Make sense yet? Sure it does. I lost my balanced analog signal [milliamp value] to a "HACK."
Hack = Remove any sensor wire the backup takes over.
Basic Troubletree:
1. Connector not connected = wire wire pants on fire.
2. Wire out of connector = handcuffed to the loop.
3. Signal out of range-short to ground = Balanced Processing with fail-safe flipflops... you lose that magnetic[ferrite core] hold at said 'intel inside.'


4 = flips to flop.
4 = binary.
4 = on-on-off-on in any combo any direction.

It walks as it talks. We on the same page yet? Basic diagnosing I reversengineer it so I can walk your answer out. This way you'll be able to answer your own questions you first figure out its fundamentals in the basics.

Signed,
NOLTT
 
#34 ·
But the bottom line is; if you remove the O2 sensors, (which are obstructing about 20% of your headers) and load an appropriate tune, the bike goes like a train and doesn't misbehave.

Beats me why so many people are fitting free-flow mufflers and de-restricting the air box but leaving an obstruction the size of your thumb in the, already tiny headers.
 
#35 ·
TT140 Again, each sensor has its own 'balanced' value. The unit works within a given range. Move the TPS and it codes out of range. Book would say; 'at closed throttle, this is the target number, and at WOT, this is the spec number at this position; adjust sensor till you read both ends that fall within its own 'balanced' [target] range.'Huggy The percentage above or below the normial fuel requirement for the volume of air entering at engine speeds other than at idle. This function is not currently used in the Triumph system. Will carry out test when the weather is warmer.
 
#37 ·
Huggy The percentage above or below the normal fuel requirement for the volume of air entering at engine speeds other than at idle. This function is not currently used in the Triumph system.
As you know I am not familiar with the product. However, I can walk up to a carb bike and it's basically the same fuel spark ign principals as would be crank-ECU-injector is to walk up to a fuel injected bike and apply those basic principals. WATT and WOT am I missing here?

The percentage of frequency is even if the idiot light does not come on, it's still out of range in its balanced state. Yes, you can pull wire and jump to what you think is some sort of hot rod feel, but it's changed to a lower torque and not at FULL you mess with a wire, ohm a wire into that wire is it blocks the signal back to a digital one only signal. You don't get the basics of most any sensor wire I can't help that.

Even the video shows how you are handcuffed to 14.7 by the normally aspirated move but I guess you don't see it is how stoic is cuffed by this number, hello DTT!? LOL

760mmHg is the Father of FI.

I do not make the rules is the vacuum we live in.


This may just be one of the worst thread hijackings in history.
Oh, but you rather suck up more knowledge about the fallacy of those other threads out on the net. Where 02 is a wire; where twin is a tech discussion thread; where someone is confused about the BS fallacy on this site alone; is he is questing something that is not making sense about the 02.

Your job, skip, is to dispute any of my 02 moves in the bottom line basics. The floor is yours. Where silence says it all. And don't forget to bring that other number I mentioned so it all walks as it talks :grin2:
 
#36 ·
Call the cops

This may just be one of the worst thread hijackings in history.
 
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