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Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for Hinckley Triumph Twins: Bonneville, T100, Speedmaster, America, Thruxton, and Scrambler.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:06 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Thanks alot guys. I will re-check the values of the sensors and screenshot the system with the engine running. I will also have a look at the route of the fuel line.

The test functions on that software seemed to think that the fuel pump tested ok, however i dont think that solution measures pressure. Is there a simple way of testing the fuel system at all?

Would the header-wrap cause the egt's to rise at all in the pipe itself, sending the wrong message from the o2 sensor to the ecu?
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:15 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JRL89 View Post
Is there a simple way of testing the fuel system at all?

Would the header-wrap cause the egt's to rise at all in the pipe itself, sending the wrong message from the o2 sensor to the ecu?
The only way is to use the special tool which consists of a slave fuel hose with a pressure gauge on it.

I've been thinking about the pipe wrap and its effect on the O2 sensors. It's a long shot but O2 sensors measure oxygen via temperature (hotter means lean, cooler means rich) so it stands to reason that if you insulate the header pipes, it should contain more of the heat which in theory should tell the ECM that you're running lean, which will then richen things up a touch when running off the sensors.

Just conjecture really, no evidence.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:38 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Unless things have changed, there are two basic types of O2 sensors.

Zirconium Dioxide (ceramic battery) These produce a voltage based on exhaust gas oxygen content. Their signal range is .1 to .9 volts. Heated to an operating temp of 540deg F.

Titanium Dioxide is a resistive sensor, high O2 content = high resistance low voltage reading on signal, low O2 content = low resistance high voltage reading on signal. Also heated.
Operate in the 0 to 1.2 volt range.

Neither care about exhaust temp (they used to for proper operation, before heaters were added).

Watch the O2 sensor readings, in closed loop you should see the voltage constantly change above and below the mid point, approx .5 volts.
They are capable of trimming the fuel mixture several times per second.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:54 PM   #84 (permalink)
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No I don't think wrapping the pipes would make any difference, because they fit O2 sensor front and rear of Cats. and rear of Cats get extremely hot, and in our bikes, the O2 sensor is in front

Last edited by huggy39; 01-14-2013 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:51 AM   #85 (permalink)
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When was the fuel filter change?
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:48 AM   #86 (permalink)
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JRL89...You were the owner to install the K&N Pods/Filters correct? Your bike ran fine up until this point of shortly thereafter, correct?

With NO map change correct?

Did you buy those filters new (came with the BC kit) or second hand ?


So, just to be sure we're clear here. You bought your bike with pipes and nology wires installed and she's run picture perfect for three years of ownership before you installed the BC kit?

Moving backwards from picture perfect...what had YOU changed and what was the exact time frame?

Like...How long were you able to run with the K&N filters before you started fouling plugs?


Making sure I have my story straight...After your bike became ill, you dropped her off to the dealership and the dealership installed a new fuel pressure regulator because they said the fuel pressure was low? Low FP will not cause black and sooty arc plugs.

Huggy, A clogged fuel filter will not cause a rich condition. You would see lower fuel volumn during a volumn test and a higher duty cycle on a returnless system. When compensation no longer overcomes the issue, you will run lean.





2008 Model are also plagued with ignitor problems...most go to a procom unit and never look back.
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Last edited by Wheelhorse; 01-15-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:49 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelhorse View Post
JRL89...You were the owner to install the K&N Pods/Filters correct? Your bike ran fine up until this point of shortly thereafter, correct?

With NO map change correct?

Did you buy those filters new (came with the BC kit) or second hand ?


So, just to be sure we're clear here. You bought your bike with pipes and nology wires installed and she's run picture perfect for three years of ownership before you installed the BC kit?

Moving backwards from picture perfect...what had YOU changed and what was the exact time frame?

Like...How long were you able to run with the K&N filters before you started fouling plugs?


Making sure I have my story straight...After your bike became ill, you dropped her off to the dealership and the dealership installed a new fuel pressure regulator because they said the fuel pressure was low? Low FP will not cause black and sooty arc plugs.

Huggy, A clogged fuel filter will not cause a rich condition. You would see lower fuel volumn during a volumn test and a higher duty cycle on a returnless system. When compensation no longer overcomes the issue, you will run lean.





2008 Model are also plagued with ignitor problems...most go to a procom unit and never look back.
I agree, JRL89 keeps changing the problem, I can't see a Triumph Dealership changing the fuel pressure regulator without changing the filter. Iv'e wasted enough time trying to help James, but something is not quiet right.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:17 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Ok guys this is where I am up to so far:

However I am also suspicious as the bike had Nology Wires and NGK plugs, and in my recent naivety installned the Nology plugs also. And the deterioration in performance has followed the installation of the plugs.

Since the replacement of the MAP sensor hoses and returning the NGK plugs (new) to the bike, the same symptoms returned, extreme over-fuelling and the fouling of plugs over a very short period.

Like it has been mentioned previously in this post, it is strange that it has arisen quickly, and not been a gradual decline, well not one noticeable by myself in recent riding. Will also makes me question whether the ECU mapping can change rapidly, and rapidly enough to create these problems/symptoms, perhaps someone can shed some light on this theory? if the nology items installed have changed the ecu's mapping or setup for the worse.

If not and the ECU mapping is the same as it has been, this would indicate that the bike, although not running to its "full potential", was running satisfactory with the short pipes and airbox removed untill the nology items were installed.

So perhaps the oil pressure sensor may of packed it in creating a instant or quick change in performance. That will be the next thing i check, then i will re-install the original leads. Sorry for the barrage of questions, but could the nology items have damaged the factory coil??
Lord almightly, you're all over the place.

Here's what I see before we go hunting with what everyone is throwing at you.

For a period of time, your bike ran well even with short pipes and an unknown map. This is a great start.

Then you couldn't leave well enough alone...we've all been there.

So, You changed what specifically and in what order?

So you added a BC kit...did you add the Nology wires before or after the BC kit?

What we're all going for here is a process of elimination. If you added the BC kit and she rode well for 6 mos. and then you added the Nology wires and she fouls plugs in 30-35 mins...the answer "almost" seems simple.

Reverse the scenario...Nology wires installed for 6 mos with no problems and then you add a BC kit and start fouling plugs in 35 mins. Again, the answer "almost" seems simple.

Almost is the clause for all of you waiting to jump on me as in nothing is as simple as it sounds or looks.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:22 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Occam's razor
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:24 AM   #90 (permalink)
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To clear a few things up for all of us, just to help identify the problem:

I purchased the bike second hand, which already had the short free flowing silencers fitted. In the first few months of owning the bike, The BC air injection removal kit was fitted, and the BC airbox elimination kit was fitted.

Since then, the bike with no change to anything else has ran just fine for approximately 5000km.

The recent changes to the bike, in chronological order.

1) First thing was the Header Exhaust wrap, which requires the bike to idle for 10-15 mins to burn off the fibres.

The bike rode without any indication of a degradation in performance for probably 200-300km after this.

2)Second was the Nology Hotwires, so the bike was still running factory NGK plugs, factory coil and the Nology Hotwires. and again following these the bike seemed to run smoothly

3) Third was the Nology Silver Plugs to accompany the Hotwires

Shortly after installing the Nology silver plugs, perhaps approx 50-100km, the bike developed the issue as mention in post number 1, after approximately 25-30mins of riding around town.

So far, thanks to all the advice and help from those of you on the forum, these are the changes that have since been made to try and fix the situation.

1) Nology Items removed and replaced with factory NGK plugs and NGK HT leads from "New Bonneville"

2) MAP sensor hoses were replaced as reccomended earlier in the post

3) Had a session at the dealership, which they found no faults with the ECU running diagnostics but did find that the fuel pressure was low, and not being maintained once the bike was shut down. So they replaced the fuel regulator and said that the test ride confirmed this had fixed the problem.

Unfortunately the problem returned within 10-15 km's of riding from the dealership.

4) Since the dealership with the assistance of someone with a better mechanical Apptitude than I, we have checked the 02 Sensors, Oil temperature Sensor (Cooler and Engine sensor), IAT sensor.

Which all showed they were working, as someone suggested to check for the correct values during operation on (Tune ECU) or simlilar.

5) Is where we are at now. Some things that may or may not be note-worthy, the spark when tested seemed to be weak, so we are leaning towards the coil possibly being damaged by the Nology items.

The bike still has the current MAP on the ECU that it has had since purchased, and at this stage nothing else on the bike has been changed or replaced apart from what has been mentioned above.

I hope this clears a few things up for you all, and once again thankyou for all your continual help, my aim is not to frustrate or irritate anyone, just looking for advice and opinions from those with more knowledge than I
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