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Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for Hinckley Triumph Twins: Bonneville, T100, Speedmaster, America, Thruxton, and Scrambler.

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Old 11-29-2012, 06:36 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Crank it

my test point for the voltage readings was at the battery as it is the source of power, therefore any readings would be constant to the rest of the system, as the distance of all wiring on the bike is very short any internal resistance in the wiring would be pretty negligble.

Since Forchetto has listed the battery type used, I did a quick search on Yuasa battery web site for the battery specs. The YT12B-BS battery which I assume I have without looking is a 10AmpHour battery with a C.C.A @ 0degrees F 215Amp. This means my cold cranking amps of the battery is 215 amps before the battery voltage begins to fall below 12v (approx).
What I might do is actually measure the starter motor winding resistance to give me the initial locked rotor theoretical current drawn at initial starter power up. But looking at this battery CCA it is pretty limited or border line to cranking current causing a big volt drop at start.
A bigger battery would allow larger CCA with less volt drop if the starter required it. You have to look at triumph trying to keep production costs to minimum and the bike operation above nuisance. The battery may be the answer for some but at the end of the day I was only doing a quick test to satisfy my curiosity after work on a 39degree C day before I had a beer!
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:47 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Crank it

In response to the voltage falling to 7v you have to remember this happens for approx. micro seconds. The residual magnetic field of a DC relay would hold the relays etc on during this dip. The magnetic hysterisis /collapse of the field in the relay would allow dropout of the relay in milliseconds but as there is still 7v present the magnetic field has not collapsed.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:49 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bert View Post
my test point for the voltage readings was at the battery as it is the source of power, therefore any readings would be constant to the rest of the system, as the distance of all wiring on the bike is very short any internal resistance in the wiring would be pretty negligble.

Since Forchetto has listed the battery type used, I did a quick search on Yuasa battery web site for the battery specs. The YT12B-BS battery which I assume I have without looking is a 10AmpHour battery with a C.C.A @ 0degrees F 215Amp. This means my cold cranking amps of the battery is 215 amps before the battery voltage begins to fall below 12v (approx).
Actually, CCA is the amount of current the battery can deliver for 30s without dropping below 7.2V at 0 degF.

Your multimeter has a 4Khz sample frequency -- if your multimeter measured a voltage, there was a good chance it was at that threshold for at least a quarter millisecond already.

For every 1 foot away from the battery you get along 8 gauge wire another .28V more of voltage drop while cranking 215Amps. Going across fuse blocks even more since there is significant resistance in a fuse.

Last edited by jesseoff; 11-29-2012 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:22 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Forchetto View Post
Triumph have been looking for a quick and easy fix already. When the EFI bikes came out they fitted an even smaller battery to accomodate the ECU and a plastic wedge separator next to the battery. This became part YT12B-BS which is around 18mm narrower than the previous carbed battery, the YTX12-BS.

Following people lining up to complain about battery troubles they hastily modified something in the airbox-ECU layout and replaced the previous larger carbed model battery on the EFI bikes.

On the SE at least this took place form VIN number 463262.

What battery do you have on yours?.
Not real sure Forchetto. the bike is in the shop at the moment, but when i get it back I will check and make sure.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:51 AM   #75 (permalink)
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I have this issue as well (2012 SE), but at least one time recently it was more than just a minor nuisance, requiring multiple pushes on the starter button before the starter motor would crank long enough to start the bike. Since I was far from home at the time, it was an unnerving experience.

I have two questions that I am hoping more knowledgeable folks might be able to answer:

1.) Are there any aftermarket tunes that change, or could be requested to change, the voltage threshold for starting? In the car world, these days it seems like virtually any ECU parameter can be changed, so I'm wondering if it's the same for bikes.

2.) Does anyone have a recommendation for a specific brand/model of battery that will fit our bikes and provide the highest possible cranking power?

Other bikes I have owned were either old or old-tech, so I am at a loss on this issue. Any input appreciated.
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Last edited by Bob D.; 11-30-2012 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:00 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob D. View Post
I have this issue as well (2012 SE), but at least one time recently it was more than just a minor nuisance, requiring multiple pushes on the starter button before the starter motor would crank long enough to start the bike. Since I was far from home at the time, it was an unnerving experience.

I have two questions that I am hoping more knowledgeable folks might be able to answer:

1.) Are there any aftermarket tunes that change, or could be requested to change, the voltage threshold for starting? In the car world, these days it seems like virtually any ECU parameter can be changed, so I'm wondering if it's the same for bikes.

2.) Does anyone have a recommendation for a specific brand/model of battery that will fit our bikes and provide the highest possible cranking power?

Other bikes I have owned were either old or old-tech, so I am at a loss on this issue. Any input appreciated.
Not sure about your question #1, but for #2, about the larger / better battery, see post # 158 in this thread:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-tech...roblem-16.html
And sometimes this issue can be a bit embarrassing, like when I was showing my brand new bike to a buddy, and it took about 3 tries on the starter to get it going. He said, "how come it's so hard to start if it's brand new?"
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:17 PM   #77 (permalink)
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OK, so unless there is some feedback loop I see no way that it could cause the starting issue we're discussing. This has to be related to the battery as stated above.
I hear what you say, but my personal experience is that if I use the control as per the handbook I have no starting problems.

If I don't use the control (which is rare now) then I can have these problems.

The thing I'm trying to put across is, why would you not follow the mfr handbook starting instructions? And when you experience difficulties (not using this control) why wouldn't you use it, just as a trial for a few days to see if it resolves the problem.

After all, Triumph didn't put it in the handbook for fun, did they.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:04 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Honestly, I don't think there is a causal relationship between the two, but I tell you what, next time this occurs on my bike, which is very infrequently, I'll try pulling out the "choke" and see if the problem persists. As to your other question: I don't normally use the choke as per the recommended starting procedure because my bike starts fine without it.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:13 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by thebiglad View Post
I hear what you say, but my personal experience is that if I use the control as per the handbook I have no starting problems.

If I don't use the control (which is rare now) then I can have these problems.

The thing I'm trying to put across is, why would you not follow the mfr handbook starting instructions? And when you experience difficulties (not using this control) why wouldn't you use it, just as a trial for a few days to see if it resolves the problem.

After all, Triumph didn't put it in the handbook for fun, did they.
I use the choke when I first start my bike for the day or if it is cold, but I will go by the book to see if it helps. I am going on the record as saying though that the choke should not have anything to do with this problem. I'm not an engineer so I can't say for certain but I do think I have a fair amount of technical skill.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:47 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Had same probs on my 2012 efi thruxton ,wil try the fast idle start from now on see how it goes ,but getting fed up with it, might need to go back to speed triple !!!!! Or even consider a jap bike again after 12yrs with triumph.........triumph need to get this sorted
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