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Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for Hinckley Triumph Twins: Bonneville, T100, Speedmaster, America, Thruxton, and Scrambler.

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Old 03-20-2012, 06:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Innovate A/F gauge vs. LM2

Hi Folks,

Since I like to do a lot of tinkering on my machine, I'm starting to see the value of having a wideband A/F gauge fitted for tuning purposes. I know many use the Innovate LM2 for tuning, but was trying to ferret out the advantages of springing for the LM2 over a simple gauge.

For those who have the LM2, do you actually use the logging function to track A/F vs. RPM or throttle position? I can see the advantage of this, but being a bit of a luddite, I tend to land on the side of the most simple solution - which is a basic gauge output and reliance on my own hand to modulate throttle position for the reading.

Anyone who can share their experience is appreciated.

Regards,

--Rich
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Well, what took you so long?

I have the LC1, so I can't help you with the LM2. That said, I have no regrets with the LC1 & G2 analog gauge.


http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/p...s/g2_gauge.php
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The LM2 is a superb tool, mine has been very useful. The big advantage is the datalogging aspect, but to be honest you can do everything you need to with one of their more simple gauges. The LM2 has the ability to record rpms, throttle position (if you want to), and so on.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by propforward View Post
The LM2 has the ability to record rpms, throttle position (if you want to), and so on.
Prop,

Thanks for the feedback. Did you use this function when sorting your FCRs? Or did you do as I probably would - which is hold the throttle at whatever throttle opening I'm trying to document and look at the output?

From prior theads I know Pieman has used the datalogging, but I wasn't sure if any non-superhumans have found this an important aspect of their tuning dance.

Regards,

--Rich

Last edited by beemerrich; 03-20-2012 at 02:47 PM. Reason: spelling!
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I started using the rpm feature, but in the end just went with fixed throttle openings, which is more important really. I did have some difficulty logging rpms, which can be very noisy on the LM2, it was a common complaint for a long while, but I haven't checked the innovate forum for a long while.

So this is why I say that the more simple gauge is every bit as good. I have datalogged some rides, just to look at how the a/f ratio changes during normal riding conditions, it's quite useful for that, but to set the carbs up you need to know what throttle opening you are at anyway. I'm not nearly as thorough as pieman, but thorough enough, I suppose.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Rich,

For the difference in price you're better off investing in an LM2. You're going to get more use out of it. At that point depending on what you get I'm sure guys would be willing to throw you a few bucks here and there to borrow it when you're not using it to tune their stuff in. Should be able to pay for itself over time. Heck with what you'll save on a dyno session or two it will almost pay for itself.

Doug
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B02S4 View Post
Well, what took you so long?
Well, to be blunt, I'm stubborn and cheap. Until fitting the big-ass D&D full system, I was fine with the A/F readings I was getting from my local dyno and the power curves confirmed what I was seeing on the A/F plot. Now the bloody exit holes on the D&D pipes are so big, the sniffer-up-the-bum method used for EGA on the dyno no longer gives me the right story...backflow into the system is skewing the A/F readings.

So now I either need to measure A/F at the O2 sensor ports using an innovate-type setup or work in the dark and go entirely on power output on the dyno....the latter of which works fine for main jet sizing, but gets dicy when trying to figure out part throttle conditions.

Anyway, more than you probably wanted to know or read!


Quote:
Originally Posted by propforward View Post
I started using the rpm feature, but in the end just went with fixed throttle openings, which is more important really. I did have some difficulty logging rpms, which can be very noisy on the LM2, it was a common complaint for a long while, but I haven't checked the innovate forum for a long while.

So this is why I say that the more simple gauge is every bit as good. I have datalogged some rides, just to look at how the a/f ratio changes during normal riding conditions, it's quite useful for that, but to set the carbs up you need to know what throttle opening you are at anyway. I'm not nearly as thorough as pieman, but thorough enough, I suppose.
Cool. Thanks for the full story, Prop. I was leaning towards getting one of the DB gauge kits with the LC-1 controller and just wanted to know if I was leaving anything I needed on the table by passing on the LM2 unit. In my case, I like being able to mount the unit up like a permanent install...though I likely will only keep it on the bike until I've gotten the carbs sorted to my satisfaction.

Cheers,

--Rich
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beemerrich View Post
Well, to be blunt, I'm stubborn and cheap. Until fitting the big-ass D&D full system, I was fine with the A/F readings I was getting from my local dyno and the power curves confirmed what I was seeing on the A/F plot. Now the bloody exit holes on the D&D pipes are so big, the sniffer-up-the-bum method used for EGA on the dyno no longer gives me the right story...backflow into the system is skewing the A/F readings.

So now I either need to measure A/F at the O2 sensor ports using an innovate-type setup or work in the dark and go entirely on power output on the dyno....the latter of which works fine for main jet sizing, but gets dicy when trying to figure out part throttle conditions.

Anyway, more than you probably wanted to know or read!




Cool. Thanks for the full story, Prop. I was leaning towards getting one of the DB gauge kits with the LC-1 controller and just wanted to know if I was leaving anything I needed on the table by passing on the LM2 unit. In my case, I like being able to mount the unit up like a permanent install...though I likely will only keep it on the bike until I've gotten the carbs sorted to my satisfaction.

Cheers,

--Rich
I've had a dynojet wideband commander permanently installed on my Thruxton since 2006, when I was riding and racing in altitudes from 4,000 feet up to 11,000 feet. Couldn't live without it. Now I live in the midwest and see no altitude changes, but it still comes in handy to judge overall running condition. For example, I started seeing a lean condition show up on the guage, and traced it to a pinched gas line that was restricting fuel flow at higher loads.
My setup has computer hookup and log potential, but I've never used it, prefering to see guage readouts with real time feel on the bike. Incidentally, it's amazing to see how little things like leg position, wind direction, etc. can make little changes in mixture. Sometimes I feel like disconnecting it now that I have things sorted out, but still find I watch the guage constantly. I have the sensor bung welded into the pipe about a foot from the exhaust port.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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+1 on what prop said...
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Rich, the LM2 is an excellent unit and does a really superb job. The logging of O2, RPM and TPS traces are handy if you do a lot of experimentation and are change things constantly. It enables me to really keep an eye on every change I make as mods move forward.

As Prop has said the RPM trace was noisy and virtually useless when the LM2 was first released, but a firmware release and solid connections have made it much smoother now. When recording traces with the LM2, you really need RPM, O2 and TPS as a minimum so you can make worthwhile observations from the trace.

If I was going to buy O2 equipment to set up my own personal bike as I upgraded something, maybe once or twice a year, then I would go for a Innovate O2 gauge as the LM2 is kind of overkill. Personally I would never make an O2 gauge a permanent install as they are too distracting whilst riding and is just something else to worry about, but to enable you to get your jetting dialled in over a 2-3 week period after a mod, they are indispensable.
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Last edited by PieMan; 03-20-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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