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Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for Hinckley Triumph Twins: Bonneville, T100, Speedmaster, America, Thruxton, and Scrambler.

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Old 03-04-2010, 09:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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MicroSquirt Injection

Hi guys, I haven't posted much lately but I've been reading all the other threads.

I've been toying with the idea of possibly fitting the Thruxton with a 'home brew' fuel injection system with larger throttle bodies and a Micro-Squirt Engine Control unit. It controls injection as well as ignition advance.

The tiny ECU and software is only about $400 USD, and a used 40mm throttle body set with TPS and a MAP sensor can be ebayed for under $100 USD. All I would need is a wideband O2 sensor and I could get it going pretty cheap. Oh, I need an external fuel pump too.

Baseline injection maps can be uploaded and altered to your liking, as well as the static baseline timing, max advance, TPS control settings, and rev limit setting.

I really like my TCIP4 (programmable ignition only) unit from Ignitech. It's given the Thruxton a real kick in the pants, especially with my custom curve. But... I've always liked the idea of programmable fuel injection too.

In order to kick the idea around I made a drawing (below) of the Thruxton intake port shape after taking some measurements (all 'New' Twins are the same, right?)

Then, I laid the 36mm CVK throat diameter over it for comparison, as well as 39, 40, and 42mm carb or throttle body options. The area of the intake port is shown, as well as the area of the various other throats.



Looks like the 36mm is smaller in cross-sectional area than the port size, and is definitely an intake restriction. But, it seems going over 39mm is probably not going to yield much more of an improvement, as the port size then becomes the restriction... not the carb or T.B! (Sorry for switching back and forth with metric and imperial units)

Interesting, and it definitely confirms what several 'big-carb' dudes here have said over and over. I would most likely use 39 or 40mm throttle bodies. I'm still doing a lot of reading and getting advice from the DIY boards and other Micro and MegaSquirt experts at this point before I decide and start gathering parts. Here's a link to their page:

http://www.microsquirt.info/

If I move ahead, I'll take pics and let you know how it goes. Anybody else here already done it?

Cheers,
BLIGHT
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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you might try searching this site for "megasquirt" and "microsquirt". Search all of Jojje1963's posts, he's used them a lot esp on his turbo'd Bonnies. Your logic is sound and should yield a good performance increase. Good luck, I hope you do it!

PS: Seems like I remember him saying you could go bigger on the throttle bodies than with carbs, something like 15% bigger without a drop in performance. If that's correct, you could run up to 45-48mm TBs.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatmachine View Post
you might try searching this site for "megasquirt" and "microsquirt". Search all of Jojje1963's posts, he's used them a lot esp on his turbo'd Bonnies. Your logic is sound and should yield a good performance increase. Good luck, I hope you do it!

PS: Seems like I remember him saying you could go bigger on the throttle bodies than with carbs, something like 15% bigger without a drop in performance. If that's correct, you could run up to 45-48mm TBs.
Thanks for the info Sweat... I did an earlier search for MicroSquirt, but not the MegaSquirt. It's another search link with more info. The Mega was developed originally for cars, and the Micro has been downsized for motorcycle, watercraft, and snowmobile use... essentially the same electronics just smaller.

I read some of Jojje's posts and it looks like upsizing the TB's is recommended, in particular, using the GSXR units. But then... he's using a supercharger!!

All fuel injection throttle bodies incorporate a butterfly, and as you and others have mentioned when comparing CV's to flat-slides, it's an obstruction to flow even at WFO.

The flat-slide carbs don't have this obstruction, so "up-sizing" the TB's slightly would negate this inherent loss. Makes sense to me anyway!

I looked at some GSXR 1000 TB's (from 2005) and they are 52mm! Seems kinda big to me. Those engines spin to 12,000 rpm so they need more CFM, even though each cylinder is only 250cc! Our cylinders (stock) are 432cc or less, so maybe a great big honkin' 52mm TB isn't so wacky, and may be just the ticket on a naturally aspirated twin at 8000 rpm?!

With a TB, you really aren't trying to maintain a certain velocity like you are in a carb with a variable slide opening. That constant velocity by throttle opening is required in order to lift the fuel from the bowl, through the jets by vacuum, and then atomize it into the intake port. With a TB, the less restriction, the better.

With fuel injection, the butterfly is simply an air-flow valve, and the ECU matches the fuel flow almost perfectly to the air flow at all engine speeds and throttle positions.

Hmmm, I guess I'll have to go with some much bigger throttle bodies! As I mentioned before, my '98 Honda SuperHawk 90 deg 996 twin came with dual 48mm flat-slide CV's and made 120rwhp @ 9000 rpm on the dyno after the normal jetting, intake, ignition, and exhaust mods. The motor was all stock @ 998cc, 4 valves per cylinder and 9.4:1 compression ratio.

More to come... still gathering info.

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Old 03-05-2010, 07:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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FWIW I have a lot of experience with megasquirt on turbocharged automotive engines. I built a 300+hp turbo dodge neon running megasquirt. I've never ran one on a bike (although the principals are the same).

For ignition control you need to figure out what the toothed wheel on crankshaft looks like. I'm assuming the carb'd bonnies have some sort of computer controlled ignition already so it should have some sort of wheel to indicate crank or cam position. You'll then need to see if that wheel can be made to work with the generic wheel decoder. If not you'll need to get on the megasquirt forum and have one of the developers write a decoder.

Once the ignition stuff is sorted out the install should be pretty easy. Once you get through the mountains of jumbled documentation its actually a quite easy system to implement and tune.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrys View Post
FWIW I have a lot of experience with megasquirt on turbocharged automotive engines. I built a 300+hp turbo dodge neon running megasquirt. I've never ran one on a bike (although the principals are the same).

For ignition control you need to figure out what the toothed wheel on crankshaft looks like. I'm assuming the carb'd bonnies have some sort of computer controlled ignition already so it should have some sort of wheel to indicate crank or cam position. You'll then need to see if that wheel can be made to work with the generic wheel decoder. If not you'll need to get on the megasquirt forum and have one of the developers write a decoder.

Once the ignition stuff is sorted out the install should be pretty easy. Once you get through the mountains of jumbled documentation its actually a quite easy system to implement and tune.
Thanks henrys... I'll look into that. One section of the MS manual actually addresses "fuel only" where you use the original digital ignition (or aftermarket) and just have the MicroSquirt control injection parameters.

You still need to trigger the injection ECU with a crank position sensor, and the Triumph 360 engine has 3 nodes on the alternator flywheel. Here's what I know in working with Ignitech on porting the TCIP4 over to my bike: The 1st node is 64 deg apart from the middle node, which is 47 deg from the last node, which is @ TDC. The first node is a reference point for the ignitor to calculate RPM based by the long 'wait'. The middle point is an advance timing point to wait and deliver the spark at the appropriate advance time based on the 3D map. (At least that's how I understand it)

The 270's are different in that they have 2 coils and different firing timing. Here's a pic of the nodes and pickup on my 360 deg Thruxton:



I'm still looking at a lot of info (and mountains of jumbled documentation as you said) posted on various forums. I always welcome any advice from anybody with injection experience.... because I have very little at this point!
Cheers,
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Blight,

You probably have thought of this but, unlike carbs, EFI throttle bodies don't provide fuel, just air. So you will need to drill the head or intake manifolds for the injectors and you will need to fabricate a fuel rail to provide them with a continuous, high-pressure (typically 48 PSI) fuel supply. Much of the performance advantage of EFI comes from the smaller, more uniform fuel dropplets produced by the injectors. However, the airstream still has to carry the fuel into the cylinder, so positioning the injector is critical. It might be worthwhile to look at how they are positioned on the new EFI Bonnies. I have found a useful book on EFI and related supplies is "Building and Tuning High-Performance Electronic Fuel Injection" by Ben Strader (SA Design). Interesting project, keep us informed.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:02 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You'll want ignition control for sure. There's power to be had by having control of timing. For fuel-only you actually only need an RPM signal which makes the install easy. If I were doing this setup I'd get it running fuel-only. Then get on the MS2 forum and get the developers to write a decoder for the bonnie engine. The thread about custom decoders is here:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...p?f=91&t=30413
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coroja View Post
Blight,

You probably have thought of this but, unlike carbs, EFI throttle bodies don't provide fuel, just air. So you will need to drill the head or intake manifolds for the injectors and you will need to fabricate a fuel rail to provide them with a continuous, high-pressure (typically 48 PSI) fuel supply. Much of the performance advantage of EFI comes from the smaller, more uniform fuel dropplets produced by the injectors. However, the airstream still has to carry the fuel into the cylinder, so positioning the injector is critical. It might be worthwhile to look at how they are positioned on the new EFI Bonnies. I have found a useful book on EFI and related supplies is "Building and Tuning High-Performance Electronic Fuel Injection" by Ben Strader (SA Design). Interesting project, keep us informed.
Hi Coroja... actually, if I use an ebay motorcycle throttle body set it's already gonna have the injectors in place and a TPS as well. Just have to monkey around with a fuel rail (SS tube and fittings) to suit the TT port spacing

Here's a pic of an injector setup for a GSXR on ebay:


It's only $145, and has twice as many TB's as needed... spare parts are always good, right?

I'll look too for that book you mentioned on Amazon.

Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrys View Post
You'll want ignition control for sure. There's power to be had by having control of timing. For fuel-only you actually only need an RPM signal which makes the install easy. If I were doing this setup I'd get it running fuel-only. Then get on the MS2 forum and get the developers to write a decoder for the bonnie engine. The thread about custom decoders is here:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...p?f=91&t=30413
I was playing around with the MegaSquirt software on my laptop computer and it's very comprehensive in the ability to tweak the timing as well as injection parameters.

For ignition, I currently run an Ignitech TCIP4 ignitor and it features easy to use PC software to adjust & control baseline advance, TPS influence, and max. advance on a 10 segmented 3D ignition map. (You can upload a new map or just some changes in about 1 second) Rev limit is also easily adjustable.... So, would I still need to use the ignition control in the Microsquirt instead of the TCIP4?

Seems like since I have the ignition already sorted out, and using the Microsquirt just for "fuel-only" would be an easier task... or, am I losing some combined functions of the Microsquirt in letting it control everything?

Thanks for your input. There's a mountain of info out there and it's tough just getting through it.

Cheers,
BLIGHT
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Old 03-06-2010, 01:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blight View Post
As I mentioned before, my '98 Honda SuperHawk 90 deg 996 twin came with dual 48mm flat-slide CV's and made 120rwhp @ 9000 rpm on the dyno after the normal jetting, intake, ignition, and exhaust mods. The motor was all stock @ 998cc, 4 valves per cylinder and 9.4:1 compression ratio.
sorry to dig up an old argument, but those carbs were not flatslides, they were constant-velocity carbs.
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