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Help!!! needs with TTP TuneLoader

12K views 58 replies 16 participants last post by  hummingbird22 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,

I know there is plenty of talk about ECU, and yes I did searched but couldn't find anything similar before posting this issue.

So, completed all mechanical changes required for Tune 3 for Thurston. But when I started the bike for adaptation, header literally became RED HOT and the fumes coming from copper grease burning where replacement bungs went in at around 8min mark during the adaptation.
Bike was revving high and low continuously like a heartbeat.

Seeing the header glowing red and fumes coming I panicked and turn off the engine.

Couple of points:
a) SAI has not been removed, not required removed as per the procedure.
b) Started the engine with cold start knob(choke) pulled out and it remained out during the adaptation. Followed the software procedure, to pull the choke out and left it pulled out, as it never stated to push it back in.
c) ECU reported errors during phase one of adaptation, which I deleted as per procedure:
P0031 Oxygen sensor heater short circuit to ground or open circuit
P0051 Oxygen sensor 2, heater short circuit to ground or open circuit

Question I have:
a) Is it normal, should I reattempt?
b) Is it because I had the cold start choke pulled out?
c) Do I need to remove the SAI (Don't want unless absolutely required, not just yet)
d) What sort of damaged it would have caused to the engine?

Really hoping to get it sorted before the lovely warm weekend coming up here in Melbourne....

Any help be much appreciated.
 
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#2 ·
Does the tune have the o2 sensors disabled? If so you shouldn't get an o2 code. Personally I'd remove the SAI (and uncheck the box in your tune). As far as adaptations go I have the factory manual right here in front of me and the instructions are:

1. Ensure the engine is cold.
2. WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE, start the engine and allow it to warm up to 60* C.
3. Leave the engine to idle for a further 12 minutes.

Nothing is mentioned about the the idle control. Just don't touch the throttle while it's adapting. Also, in tuneecu the TPS light will turn green once it has adapted.
 
#3 ·
Hi Henrys,

Yes O2 sensor are out, and disabled in the Tuneloader. SAI are still installed so I kept the SAI error enabled in the Tuneloader.
Could remove the SAI, but its not necessary for Tune3, and it would take about a week to get the parts in :(

Engine was fully cold, hadn't started it for a week.
Did not touch the throttle, did pulled the choke out and it remained out until i turned off the engine half way though.

I'll give it another go tomorrow without the choke... and see how that goes.. just don't wanna kill the motor :(
 
#5 · (Edited)
What would TTP say if you asked them to send to you another tune #3, except this time please send the one that works with SAI installed and functional and without O2’s ?

I think its inferred that the SAI needs to be removed: per TTP website & tuneloader instructions:
“We recommend SAI (Secondary Air Induction) removal to any owner of a Triumph classic twin who intends to modify their bike.”
“Enable/disable the O2 and SAI systems error light. (Disabled by default).”


Then as mentioned, there’s tuneloader instructions for: reset adaption 2nd part:
“…pull out the cold start knob and idle the engine…”

Yeah but, I’m quite sure TTP’s prior instructions indicated to use the cold start knob only as long as required to keep the bike running. In other words push it back in as soon as practical. The important part is : don’t touch the throttle for the idling period up to 20 minutes.

BTW, I question the need for 20 minute idling without O2 sensors. Without O2’s I’m inclined to believe that the reset adaption - - the erasing of prior ECU stored closed loop adaptions and the updating of the ECU’s voltage correction for closed throttle position (TPS) - - occurs in a matter of seconds upon the Reset Adaption command. At least in TuneECU.

Anyway (I never thought I’d ever say this :rolleyes:): as a test, try plugging the SAI inlet hose with marble, start bike up again without touching the throttle & don’t use “choke”/cold start knob any longer than necessary.
 
#6 ·
About the SAI removal, I contacted Mike a few weeks ago because I'll probably not remove the SAI. I wanted to make sure I just needed to remove the O2 sensors and Mike said that the SAI was not a requirement as the O2 sensors removal to run the Tune. Just recommended, not necessary.
 
#8 ·
The problem is, the Tuneloader software actually instructs to run the bike with choke pulled. No word on putting it back. After merily running at 3000 rpm for several minutes, my oil temp hit 100C, and I decided to stop the nonsense. Another day, another try, this time completely without choke. The TPS light turned green as soon as the oil temp hit 65C.

I don't think leaving SAI in has a detrimental effect on performance. The pipes will get hotter, and there might be popping. I simply blocked the SAI tube, left the hardware in place though. For easy reversal. Same with O2 sensors. The map doesn't use them, but as long as they are connected, they won't be damaged either.

One thing that is essential for the tune to run well is to remove the airbox baffle. Whether you need a high flow inlet, I am not convinced. 10% more power only needs 10% more air.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Same with O2 sensors. The map doesn't use them, but as long as they are connected, they won't be damaged either.
Well, well, well. I've been waiting for someone to spot that one, well done:).

I've been running for some months with my O2 sensors re-fitted and connected, TTP's tune Number 3 installed, and it runs exactly the same as with the sensors removed and blanked off. No difference whatsoever. As you say, the map no longer calls for their input so it runs fine.

As this is directly against all advice I've refrained from publishing the findings, until now.

This came about as I had to return most of my performance mods (tune map, sensors, AI, exhaust system with cats) etc, temporarily to standard to enable passing Government emission tests during compulsory regular inspections, so I decided that before I reloaded the OEM "clean" Tune to try it out. Following the tests I've reloaded tune number 3, left sensors in position and it's fine.
 
#9 ·
My guess is TTP and not instructing to push the choke back in as soon as possible can be chalked up to figuring it's one of those things that goes with saying . Do some reading to ensure your comfortable and then repeat the process again . Push the choke in as soon as possible .
 
#11 ·
Forchetto , do you think leaving them in place but O2 disabled will damage them ? Thats the claim some have made in past comments in the many threads .
 
#12 · (Edited)
Don't think so, as long as they're reconnected to the loom. The disabling feature that comes with TTP's loader or TuneECU only disables the MIL light warning that would result from electrically disconnecting them.

If they're left connected to the loom, even with the MIL light thing disabled, the sensor's built-in pre-heaters would still work as normal, the sensors themselves would keep doing their thing in the searing heat of the pipe and generating and sending their voltage signals to the ECU as usual.

It's just that the ECU wouldn't take any notice of them with the right tune map installed.

I realise that Pieman, from TTP, or a more knowledgeable member might come around this thread and make a nonsense of the above statements, I'm still keeping my sensors installed ready for the next inspection, as I notice no difference in the fine running at all, once the Togas and TTP's tune 3 are back and the AI disabled again.
 
#13 ·
After reading on this forum that these twins can run into serious overheating issues after idling for 30 min (at 'normal' spec 1000 rpm), there was no way I was letting mine run for 20 min with full choke during the TTP upload. It's true that TTP's instructions don't mention shutting off the choke once engine is idling normal, but I took it as being "implied". Mike really should correct this in the instructions. I ran the choke in first position for about a min (ambient temp was about 60 deg F) then let her idle at 1000 rpm spec for duration of adaptation process and had no issues.
 
#15 ·
Wow , so after all the O2 removal isn't really necessary when using TTP tunes ?

But if disabling the O2 sensors on tuneECU ou TuneLoader just prevents the MIL light warning that comes one after disconnecting the sensors (nothing new so far) doesn't that mean they are still working after the tune? Or that just does apply to OEM maps and the tunes from TTP ignores the O2 sensors just like they were removed entirely ?

That would save me some work since I don't mind seeing them installed, it's just that supposedly they needed to be removed for the tune to run fine, the bike run smoothly and also keep the sensors itself from being damaged.
 
#16 · (Edited)
they are still working after the tune? Or that just does apply to OEM maps and the tunes from TTP ignores the O2 sensors just like they were removed entirely ?
AFAIK It only applies to OEM maps or those after-market maps, possibly home-brewed, that still have AFR ratios that read around 14.5 anywhere on their range, that seems to be the cue for the ECU to read and apply the output signals from the O2 sensors.

This was discussed some years ago and experienced tuner Power-tripp from Power-tripp.com
agreed that this was the situation. See posts 21 and 23 on this thread, together with an example of an AFR table that doesn't call for the sensors:

http://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-fi-tuning-help-tips-and-tricks/173592-02-sensors-3.html

The table shown there is not from one of TTP's tunes but I've had a look at my TTP tune and it's very different but similarly it doesn't include the crucial 14.5 anywhere on it.

I have to emphasize that I'm not recommending leaving the sensors in, or going against TTP's advice or anything like that, I simply took the opportunity to state my findings, made entirely by chance, following 15Ace's observation on post 8.

If he had not said it I would have remained schtum about it rather than open myself up for lots of arguments. All I'm saying is that having found out that the reinsertion of the sensors together with restoring my TTP tune and all the other mods following Government tests, the bike runs just as well as when the sensors were removed entirely.
 
#17 · (Edited)
So kept thinking about it last night and could only think of
Choke pulled out=extra fuel=too much heat

First thing I did as I woke up, reset the ECU and re-did the procedure without pulling the choke, not even to start. My bike never needs it to start up..

And all went smooth, idle at 1000rpm, TPS green in about 14 mins as soon as temp hit 65C

So for anyone who is about to load tunes, do not bother with choke at all, and if you need to start push it back once once ur bike is running.

SAI doesn't need to be removed, only thing is it pops now on de-acceleration as O2 is not doing its thing... But hey sounds pretty cool :)

Another observation, bike sounds better too.. and it feels it doesn't have to work as hard

Spot on! @atverycore @miweber929 @15Ace @goingtobenew
 
#20 ·
I may be wrong but the "choke" on our EFI engine is a "manual air control valve" basically it creates a air leak to cause the engine to rev higher so it should actually make it leaner.

On your car (quote) The Idle Air Control (IAC) valve allows the ECU to adjust engine idle speed by letting in a controlled amount of air into the engine .
 
#21 · (Edited)
The following is a strongly held opinion of one, supported by observation and reasoning.

After loading of TTP tune there is no need to turn one’s exhaust headers into molten metal (while following instructions as written). Nor to worry about damaging one’s oil pump gears etc., through excessive idling of the engine.

BECAUSE in order to accomplish the resets that are desireable with TTP tune one doesn’t even need to start the engine ! Those resets being:

1.) Erasure of any prior ECU-stored closed loop adaptions. Those adaptions have also been referred to as “information logs”. When the O2 sensors were functional the O2-generated adaptions were being updated every time the bike ran in closed loop mode, providing averages utilized by the ECU to trim the fuel mixture. One can see those averages in TuneECU on the Diagnostics page under O2 Sensor. Adaptions will no longer be updated once O2’s have been removed. (Don’t know: absent a reset would the adaptions stay in the ECU forever, or would they just get overwritten by zero-inputs to eventually become extinguished anyway). TTP wants customers to utilize the tune exactly as-is without any fuel trimming associated with those residual & old/ possibly out of date ECU-stored closed loop adaptions. and,

2.) Throttle position sensor (TPS) closed throttle position voltage correction: The ECU “thinks” that closed throttle position voltage is exactly 0.60 volts and it uses this as its basepoint to index the fuel and ignition tables. Since the actual voltage delivered by the TPS in the closed throttle position will never be exactly 0.60 volts, the ECU maintains a correction factor for this. For example, if a particular bike’s TPS is sending 0.62 volts in the closed throttle position, when properly set the ECU will apply a closed throttle correction of 0.02 volts (.62 versus .60). So then when the TPS is sending voltages associated with various throttle openings the ECU then knows with much more accuracy what fuelling and ignition timing is intended by the tune as installed. Again TTP wants customers to utilize the tune with exactness so a TPS reset is a good thing to do and won’t hurt regardless.

Enough garble. Below is a picture illustrating the effect of the command ECU-Reset Adaption in TuneECU. I believe that this demonstrates that the objective in point 1.) above is accomplished in a matter of a few seconds. Now, does tuneloader do the same things during a reset adaption that TuneECU does ? I’d guess yes, since tuneloader has probably piggybacked off TuneECU’s “code”.


There is no further need to rebuild closed loop adaptions through a 20-minute cold startup idling procedure. With O2’s gone, previous O2 related adaptions erased, and no pointers in the TTP tune to engage closed loop, there won’t be any more closed loop fuel trimming in any event !

Comments and alternative points of view (with supporting data :)) are welcome.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: I still think those headers wouldn’t have lit up as brightly in only 8 minutes, and the sealant wouldn’t have smoked so profusely, with SAI-off !! :)
 

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#23 · (Edited)
Yes, all the good things claimed for the deleting of the sensors and loading the right tune map are there: No throttle snatch, excellent driveability, rock steady idle, great performance , etc, and yet the sensors are fitted and plugged in as normal. I was about to remove them when I decided to try the bike with them still in, just to see what would happen.

It did run like **** with the OEM tune (20187) and all the emissions crap and standard silencers re-installed for the Government tests though, couldn't wait to reload TTP's tune...

I have to admit to being more than a little surprised by this, I even considered consulting with Mike but never got around to it. I've kept it to myself all these months as I didn't want to open any cans of worms and all that but 15Ace's post prompted me to report on it. I've noticed he's buggered off and left me to it though...:).

It's probably all wrong, somehow. Hopefully someone might put me right...Mike? D'Ecosse?, etc
 
#25 · (Edited)
The reason the engine got so damn hot was because the choke was left out ! Idling at twice the RPM or more :surprise: Not
 
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#27 · (Edited)
It appears a new well put together TTP tuneloader for dummies sticky wouldn't go astray .EDIT- Although I don't know how TTP could make their tuneloader much simpler than it is , other that I guess to add ''use choke as per triumphs recommended starting procedure'' ? And it also wouldn't hurt to maybe toss this one aside http://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-f...and-questions-pertaining-to-installation.html - Tune ECU for dummies and someone create a new one containing the latest and greatest knowledge without the myths etc .


Who is up for the challenge :)
 
#29 ·
Who is up for the challenge :)
No problem. well…:) maybe just one or five : I don’t have a TTP tune and may not get one next year when my 2-year warranty expires. In fact I may not consider it until my O2 sensors or something else goes kaput on their own.

Don’t know if TTP is free to disclose in detail why and how the forced adaption / 20-minute tune thing is absolutely necessary following load of TTP tune. This is the biggest bugaboo in the current process. They may have some informal relationship with Triumph to keep secrets secret. The fact that TTP’s, TuneECU’s and Triumph’s procedures don’t go far enough into the details and they seem to bumble over one another, indicates either they don’t know (maybe Keihin knows?) or they don’t want to tell.

Other considerations like keeping O2’s-in (like Forchetto has experimented with) or SAI with a TTP tune are less important IMO. As compared to the engine-idling forced adaption procedure. It would relieve a lot of pain and suffering for TTP tune owners (current and future) if the necessity of this belaboured adaption was removed.

Otherwise I’m presently at a loss as to how to test further.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I had the EXACT PROBLEM!... look hard enough and you'll find my long thread on the same issue. My bike got to 140 before I shut it down. Did the adaptation with the knob pushed in and all worked fine. And I then changed the oil to just calm my anger.

It does not state to to push the idle-speed knob back in (it is not a choke) in the instructions. Because the idle speed knob is instructed to be pulled out before starting the procedure- it reads as though the RPM setpoint from the idle speed knob is required for the procedure. It is written in a bit of a confusing way. But- once loaded - damn does it ever make a difference!!!
 
#30 · (Edited)
I think we're getting a bit confused between "reset adaptions", "reset TPS" and carrying out the "adaption procedure" as shown on the service manual.

For the "reset adaptions" part I can do no better than to link to this reply from Pieman back in 2011:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-tec...reset-adaption-in-tuneecu-do.html#post1992008

The "reset TPS" I believe just means that the ECM is made to set the throttle to the zero position value. This can take as little as 3-4 minutes up to 10-12 minutes. In the event that after this time the green light doesn't come on, TTP advises to turn things off as it's likely the reset is completed.

The "adaption procedure" is done to adapt the settings to new geographical conditions, weather, altitude, new mods, etc and is as described in the factory service manual:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/amvelectronica/triumph/adaption.jpg

Apparently this won't work if the O2 sensors are removed, but the ECM will learn and adapt as time goes on.

To muddy the waters further, I've read somewhere that the "reset adaption" and "reset TPS" is the same instruction on TuneECU but two separate ones in TTP's Tuneloader...:)
 
#42 ·
(bluesforchallah). OMG. :eek: The service technician mis-read the map ? and mods were undone… but then why does the bike now run better. Interested in how this eventually works out for you Chris.

Back to the discussion of resets and adaption:

I think we're getting a bit confused between "reset adaptions", "reset TPS" and carrying out the "adaption procedure" as shown on the service manual.
IMO it’s useful to reflect on advice given repeatedly by DEcosse. First, about the need for O2 sensors in order for ECU adaption to take place:
“without an O2 sensor there is nothing from which the ECU can learn & re-adapt - it will only use real-time info from the sensors and not have any trim.”
“Adaption (by definition) however needs 'something' to adapt to - if there is no sensory data (ie O2 sensor) then doing a 20 min tune (during which period it monitors the exhaust and trims the fueling accordingly) is moot.”
References:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/525761-reset-adaption.html
http://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-fi-tuning-help-tips-and-tricks/222534-basic-efi question.html

And about the distinction between O2 sensors which impact ECU memory, versus other sensors which don’t:
“There is no mechanism for any adaption without O2 sensors. However any active sensor (temperature - air or oil/water and pressure - ambient, MAP) will have effect on the current conditions but none of these will have a 'resident' impact in memory.”
Reference: http://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-fi-tuning-help-tips-and-tricks/222534-basic-efi-question.html

And about the distinction between TPS reset and ECU adaption:
“…there is no adaption associated with TPS reset…but TPS alignment/zero is still required to correctly reference the TPS to the correct spot in the map tables.”

It is clear that without O2 sensors the ECU will not “learn” or retain anything.

Regarding TPS reset. The relationship between the TPS sensor and the ECU is described clearly under the heading Closed Throttle Position in this document “Adaptive Fuel Systems” downloadable from tuneecu.com:
http://www.tuneecu.com/Tunes_in_Hex_and_dat/TuneECU/Adaptive_Fuel_Systems_EN.pdf.
Essentially the ECU adjusts the entire fuel map for any difference between the actual closed throttle position voltage and the 0.6 volts standard value. This is also referred to as an “adaption” which is different than, and in addition to, the Closed Loop System adaption which refers to the O2 generated ECU stored closed loop trim values. The closed throttle position adaption status, adapted or not adapted, is made visible using the Triumph Diagnostic Tool available only to Triumph dealers. It is not visible in TuneECU or Tuneloader.

Just like the Triumph Diagnostic Tool utilizes a single command to address both the closed throttle position and the closed loop system. I believe that TuneECU and Tuneloader address those same two things with a single command as well: in TuneECU it’s the ECU\Reset Adaption command. ( I posted this belief previously in an EFI forum thread and received no rejection of it by DEcosse and others.) But, TuneECU and Tuneloader do only a “reset” -- wiping out the accumulated closed loop adaptions and trueing up the TPS closed throttle position adjustment (per DEcosse: “TPS alignment/zero”) – as TuneECU and Tuneloader are not capable of the fast adaption method like the Triumph Diagnostic Tool is. Without the Triumph tool its necessary to do the 20-minute idling procedure and have O2 sensors installed in order to rebuild closed loop adaptions. Of course with TTP tune there is no closed loop so 20-minute idling is a worthless exercise.
 
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#31 · (Edited)
I can't understand all the confusion surrounding this - http://www.telecable.es/personales/amvelectronica/triumph/adaption.jpg As far as the so called choke goes , well I don't understand the confusion over it either as the proper starting procedure is well laid out in owners manual . I performed the 20 min adaptation a couple of times without a hitch , I guess I just instinctively knew to use choke to start bike as that's a triumph correct starting procedure and to push it back in as soon as possible .

Forchetto I'd say you're bang on about what is causing much of the confusion . It would be nice for someone to create a new fresh guide thread for the procedures for loading a new tune with tune ecu though . As can be expected better understanding and knowledge has been gained over the years surrounding EFI ,tunes,O-2's etc since some of the threads and info started . It would be nice for folks to have the latest accurate info , procedures in one thread without all the outdated ,possibly wrong info etc to wade through . But I guess that's the nature of forums , open threads etc , one must do a lot of wading and weeding to find the correct info etc .
 
#33 · (Edited)
Not Found

The requested URL /personales/a...h/adaption.jpg was not found on this server.


Yes that's a great link , chalked full of info :) Not sure why the link with procedure is not working for me but works in Forchetto's comment . I may need a creating a link for dummies sticky as well :) Edit - corrected now .
 
#35 ·
Thanks. The above is a link to a picture of the Triumph factory service manual #T3856390 page 10B.105.

This is written for technicians in the context of bikes that have not been tampered with. Not for bikes with O2 sensors disabled and TTP tunes loaded. Then TuneECU’s and TTP’s instructions confuse the issue more. For example: prior to tuneloader, I recall that TTP’s instructions made reference to getting back to “factory default” values, or something like that.
 
#36 ·
I believe I asked the question a few years ago about if there was any point in performing the 20 minute idle adaptation once the O-2's were removed / or disabled . I believe at the time the " belief " was that yes there were still things going on other than O-2 related ? But I think it's apparent that there's still a fair bit of mystery and unknowns surrounding much of this . And even contradicting instructions at times from folks who one would think should be in the know . I believe I think I'm correct in seeing comments from some folks who are saying things are going on in these bikes brains that no one can see other than triumph ? If that's the case how can one come to a correct conclusion .........
 
#38 ·
I think they just thought that it would go without needing to be said , to use the choke knob as per triumph regular starting procedure . But obviously I guess it may require saying for some .
 
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