Triumphrat

FattRat · 01-16-2006

After breakfast, I called Lindemann Engineering to see if he would see me and my bike for a suspension tune-up. What a day for a ride! A cool 52 degrees, sun out, clear day, and DRY ROADS! I ended up riding over 200 miles to San Jose & back. It was a treat to cruise on the freeway (near San Jo') at a steady 80-85 mph in keeping with the flow of traffic. And the bike was running sweeEET!

The results of my having spent a couple hours (and $60.00) with 'Lindemann Engineering', known for it's expertise in motorcycle suspension, listed below:
My Hagon Nitros set at their softest rate of damping, are too stiff for my 250 pounds!?!?! "Could use a softer setting in the adjustment curve."
- and -
My Hagon progressive springs up front, are much too short & way too stiff,
- and -
the 20 wt. called for in the instructions with the Hagons is serious over-kill. "Seriously phucked up geometry and waaaaay too much damping."

I went to him complaining that my bike had head shake under certain conditions (if I took my hands off the handlebars), but my biggest concern was the bike wallowing at high speeds while leaning her through the turns.

I already replaced my first set of Hagon entry-level shocks because of wallowing, bought some Hagon springs, a fork brace, and paid the big bucks to replace the first set of after-market shocks with expensive "Thruxton racer" Hagon Nitros.
But my bike's handling characteristics still SUCKED!

So Jim @ Lindemann's tells me that if I take my tubes off and bring them back to him, he can set me up properly for around (another) $300.00!!!!! (Mo money, mo money, mo money.)
-- So what did I learn from this? --
If I had to do it all over again, I woulda brought my bike to somebody who does motorcycle suspension for a living...... I would buy my rear shocks from him (doesn't matter if they're a designer brand name or not), and I would have him tailor a single rate spring specifically for my applications. I should have never bought suspension parts, component at a time, over the internet. If you ride like an***** from time to time, you simply don't wanna take the chance of being sold parts is parts, and then pretend that you know what you're doing by installing of your own shiny new parts. I've spent a pretty penny over the last few months, and for another sixty bucks today, only to discover that I can't even make my parts work..... save for the over-damped Nitros.

Jim at Lindemann Engineering drained some of the 20 wt. out of my forks, and added a 20mm spacer. (He suggested (figuritively) that we were trying to go from east to west across a canyon, but all we did with his modifications was just go further south.) "We can't get there from here" he added. He said with the spacers, the bike might be better on the freeway, but it's still not right and I will likely have the same wallowing as before.

He was right. When I got off the freeway and took the Altamount Canyon back road high speed sweepers, my wallowing may have been arrested to a small degree, but the straight line sprints seemed a little more rock-steady; my suspension was still wrong. At this point the engine is running danm GOOD, she's winding out, pulling strong, and really bringing a smile to my once bummed out demeanor.

Life is good! my suspension might suck, but the bike is running ****!

So what did I learn today?
An afternoon aboard a bike is better than mowing the lawn and doing laundry.
Remember to flip that blasted petcock from reserve upon filling your tank!
Leave your suspension purchases and installation to the pro's if you like to push your bike's performance envelope!

[ This message was edited by: FattRat on 2006-01-18 06:57 ]

50yrDream · 01-16-2006

Way to go FatRat! That was quite an interesting narrative! Thanks for sharing! And Hey, Weight Watchers does work, I'm down a good 35#'s from when I started!

tba-golfer · 01-16-2006

Great commentary!
A couple of gentle weight reduction and prostate ideas for you ( from a 5'6" er that went from 185 to 150):
1. Ixnay on as many fried foods and processed sugars as possible. Lean, good, protein, nuts and veg.
2. Vitamins: L-lycine, C, fish oil, and 2 tspns. of organic apple cider vinegar mixed in with your morning glass of juice (cranberry/grape, as an example.)
3. Two sessions a week of strength training, two of cardio. As little as 30 minutes, each.

You'll get addicted to it, you'll look and feel better. You'll ride better. But when you lose the weight you'll have to re-adjust your bike again; and that's a good thing!

Oh, and did I mention; no adult beverage modification required under this regimen.

Cheers!

ChuckofTahoe · 01-16-2006

I kind of always felt this same way about this subject in the back of my mind.

I have read many posts on this forum attesting to how bad the stock shocks and front forks are. Many posts featuring upgrades of the stock suspension feature raves about Hagons, Ikons, Ohlins and that it is unbelievable how bad the stock set up is once you make an upgrade etc.. Ads on the various after market suppliers web sites tell us how bad the stock suspensions suck.

But after reading all of these posts I was always hesitant to change my suspension components as I felt that safety concerns related to suspension should come first. For example, stiffening the components might work great for certain situations but in other circumstances, the bike may be running too stiff and you could be unnecessarily thrown or the bike upset when a more compliant suspension might absorb the road change or other change in balance better.

In other words, until I understand suspensions really well, which is unlikely, or I find a good shop that does, I am not going to radically alter the Bonnevilles suspension components. For one thing I find the bike to be very stable under most conditions and it works well for me. So why screw around with it until I am 100% sure an improvement can be made in both handling and safety. Really my only complaint is the front end diving under routine stopping. Some diving you want as this increases the force on the front braking wheel. A lot of the dive can be controlled by effective use of the rear brake to balance the front brake.

The other thing I have learned is to review the modifications posted on this forum carefully as there is a tendancy in all of us to rationalize what we have done to our bikes.

I would call this kind of a mechanical Placebo effect. In medicine, a placebo effect is when a patient's symptoms can be alleviated by an otherwise ineffective treatment, since the subject expects or believes that the medicine or other therapy will work. What I call the mechanical placebo effect is when a motorcycle owner, or any vehicle owner for that matter, adds changes to or modifies the machine and then believes that the machine is performing better when actually there has been no measurable improvement in performance. Or quite possibly, the modification has resulted in a reduction of performance.

Now dyno charts and gas mileage statistics are hard evidence of performance. Track times are hard evidence of performance as well.

But suspension I believe falls into the category that is so nuanced that it is difficult to define performance. And performance may vary or be specialized to certain conditions. For example, a suspension may be tuned to perform extremely well on the track but may actually be inappropriate or even unsafe for handling real world road conditions.

I am going to proceed slowly on suspension changes with my Bonneville. Especially since I am basically happy with the stock set up and it is meeting my needs in terms of comfort and basic day to day performance.

Edit: BTW, isn't Chorizo and Eggs a bad way to start Weight Watchers? :-D This sounds like one of my diets.

[ This message was edited by: ChuckofTahoe on 2006-01-16 22:01 ]

DickBender · 01-16-2006

Pat,
Nice Post.
With your suspension mods try to remember what it was like stock. You might not be completely happy with the suspension now, but I bet you it's heaps better than stock. I know mine is with ikons f&r and 15w oil.

darcy

Asmith · 01-16-2006

ChuckOT,you put some words together that make a lot of good sense. It's encouraging to see someone on this forum with such clear thought processes. :hammer: Vegas

PCRider · 01-17-2006

You would think that some of these shock companies could come up with a chart for each of the bikes and what type of riding you did plus your weight and get you pretty darn close to what you need. I have been considering a suspension upgrade (after I lose some more weight).
I lost 40 pounds and I'm lookin to get rid of another 20 and then do my suspension.

Losing weight is the cheapest performance modification you can do.

I was born hungry and I still am. There was that one year for about fifteen minutes after Thanksgiving dinner.....

PCRider

MES · 01-17-2006

I'm with chuckOT on this.
I think that people tend to rush things a little. The bike is new and your new to the bike. Give both parties a chance to settle in and take it from there.
My stock suspension seems to be better now than when the bike was new.
The brakes aren't grabby now and the front doesn't dive nearly as much.
The engine isn't sticky so it doesn't unsettle the bike if I get on or off the throttle a little.
It does feel like it wants to wander in a sweeper at speed but it is rock solid in rail to rail high 2nd-low 4th.
I never did get the pogo effect that so many people here did.
In a effort to cure the wanders I have made a point to keep my upper body real quite through the turns as the slightest pressure on the bars will upset things. I;m 6'2" and 275lb top heavy. When I start moving my upper body around things tend to happen and not always for the better.
It helps a lot but I can't help but think that a steering dampener would do a whole lot of good (at least for me). Force me to put a little more effort into the bars.
Hey fatRat, sorry about your suspension 'blem glad your ride was good.
You'll get it sorted.
If anyone is riding with a steering dampner I would like to hear your thoughts.

FattRat · 01-17-2006

Chuck hit it right on the head,
he saw EXACTLY the underlying intent of my post.

I spent time actually TALKING to the vendors who sold me the components! I stressed that I weigh 240 pounds, that I carry additional weight in my bags, and that I'm an aggressive rider. I later found out that the springs on my Hagon Nitros are marked as belonging to a certain weight range, but the vendor had no idea what they were and dismissed them as universal in application..... "trust me."

I'm convinced that "suspension" is a marriage of the WHOLE PACKAGE! One component alone will change the entire equation, and it could be for the worst if you don't know what you've got or what you're doing.

I believe I may have been sold THE INCORRECT springs for the front of my bike, that the dealership who installed them let the new kid perform the task without watching closely as he measured the fluid, and I wish I looked at the instructions MYSELF to see if they did in fact call for 20 weight. Doesn't matter though, Lindemann Engineering said the springs were way too short and much too stiff.......

I'm a guy who rode like an idiot on the VERY forgiving tele-lever and penta-lever of a BMW for over 58,000 miles. I also rode my Sprint RS at Buttonwillows, and at over 120 mph on the switchbacks of Monitor Pass..... I thought by buying designer name suspension components for my Bonnie, that it was gonna be the cat's meow.

But it's NOT!

And worst still, I have no recourse....... I trusted two completely different vendors, for two (three) different components, installed by somebody who doesn't even carry that product line, dialed in by two separate people who adjusted them for different applications (a flat-tracker and a Ducati/Harley mechanic), and with varying opinions about the resulting front end. Money, mo money, mo WASTED money!

FERGODSAKES people,
get it all done at one place, front AND rear, by one person, and let him order & install everything. If it ain't right, you can always go back to HIM!

Jeez, I'm sooooo pissed at myself for spending all that money, falling for the age old 'trust me,' and subscribing to "parts is parts!"

(And to think for the last several thousand miles I thought my riding skills suddenly SUCKED on the Bonnie! At least I've learned quite a bit about how to minimize the resulting antics of a poorly set-up suspension, but I still have plenty to learn.....)

[ This message was edited by: FattRat on 2006-01-17 00:51 ]

Odysseus · 01-17-2006

Thanks for telling that story, FattRat. I've been giving a lot of thought to changing the suspension on mine. Trouble is, I don't have any of the mechanical skills of so many people on this forum, so I'm 100% dependent on the company who sells me the gear and the mechanics who install it.

I fact, I talked to my brother about it a while back, and he gave me very similar advice to what Chuck says. He says that I need to use the bike for a good long time under all conditions and with all kinds of riding, and make sure that I've run right through all the suspension settings, before I start making expensive changes. It was good advice.

It happens that in my city, the road surface is extremely poor in some parts of town, so you need suspension that is a lot softer than I would like. (I think that's why they chose it as the starting point for the Dakar Rally this year ;-) ).