Triumphrat

saphena · 01-07-2013, 02:01 PM

I'm sorry you chaps feel special about this. Let me see if I can explain myself a little better.

When I'm out on my bike (or in a car for that matter but especially on the bike) I consider that every other road user (car, van, motorcycle, pedestrian, whatever) falls into one of two categories:

First category - those who can't (or don't) see me, for whatever reason - their fault, physiology, pyschology, bad weather, my black clothing, whatever.

Second category - those who are out to kill me.

In practice I don't distinguish between the two categories. I don't need to because in either case I have to take complete responsibility for my own safety.

There is nothing I can do to make other people's behaviour better, there is nothing any of you can do to make other people's behaviour better, there is nothing the government can do to make other people's behaviour better and even if I/you/the government could do something to improve other people's behaviour - we'd all still have to take complete responsibility for our own safety.

No I don't work for an insurance company. Yes I do ride in real (and I do mean "real") traffic and I do know that I definitely contributed to every close call I've ever had.

Please continue believing that you are a helpless victim of someone else's poor performance if that's what makes you happy, you won't necessarily die as a consequence.

s3g2 · 01-07-2013, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kreemsicleT100

My performance is why it was a close call, and not an accident.

I, personally, do not expect perfection from other drivers, and seldom get angry. But when I can actually see the person's face in the rear view mirror, and they never check that mirror before they decide to change lanes and run me off the road, yes that angers me. I wasn't in your blind spot because I could see you. You just didn't look. My actions did not contribute to that situation, they saved me.

And I do not ride in people's blind spots for that very reason. I was simply overtaking. That scenario is very common for me here in the States and has happened many times. In fact, one day it happened 2 times within 3 blocks, about 30 seconds apart. The old adage "it takes two" does not apply here. It's simply not true.

I don't know how people drive in the uk, but here, people drive without regard for others, and many as though they have a vendetta. They are angry, spiteful and drive with a sense of entitlement. I'm not going to get into a long diatribe, but I've actually had people try to run me off the road on purpose here, with my car and my bike. I lived a long time in the middle of the city, and people are just flat out nuts. I'd love for others in cities here in the US (i.e. Miami, NY LA etc.) to chime in and tell me I'm wrong?

I hear what you're saying. I live a couple miles from US19, just north of Clearwater on the west coast of FL. Anyone who knows this area knows what a nightmare US19 is. Very few people use their turn signals, you've got 80-something y/o blue-hairs, hopped up on 26 different meds & let's not forget Johnny pill-popping white-trash zipping around as if he's in a NASCAR race. Do you think for one second I expect these clowns to realize I'm within 100yards of their vehicles? No Sir, I trust no one & ride accordingly.
Cheers,
Glenn

alexibrow · 01-07-2013, 03:13 PM

This is the article to which I referred earlier:

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/smidsy...oo%20Close.pdf

Bron-Yr-Aur · 01-07-2013, 03:14 PM

Haha I think it's funny that my FL people stepped up. You guys get it. I use to think that we (as a Floridian) got all the rejects from the north coming down. I honestly thought that, because when friends would come down from Canada, they'd say "Man, what's up with the way people drive down here?!!" Well, my Florida brethren, I hate to tell you, it's worse up here, at least in PA. I've never seen so many people who drive angry. I guess it's just a sign of the times/bad economy, or just something that I don't understand.

I don't think saphena is understanding what we're saying. Yes in every situation, we as motorcycle riders need to do our best to be totally on guard in hopes of compensating for other driver's mistakes. Here's where we differ in opinion - it doesn't mean it's my fault if I don't catch another's mistake in time. If, in a lapse of judgement, I allow someone to run me off the road, it was still the other driver's fault. I did not contribute to that accident. Word things how you want. It doesn't take 2 people to cause an accident, it only takes one. And usually only 1 is at fault. That's like blaming me for getting rear-ended because I didn't get out of the way of a distracted driver. Yes I always watch in my mirror at traffic signals, but if I do get hit, how is it my fault? How did I "contribute" to the situation, other than by just being there?

I'm not a helpless victim. If I were, I wouldn't ride. Saphena, if you contributed to every close call you had, maybe you should consider a motorcycle training course?

jonkster · 01-07-2013, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kreemsicleT100

Here's where we differ in opinion - it doesn't mean it's my fault if I don't catch another's mistake in time.

I can see Saphena's point.

People can and do make mistakes. That means I need to ride in such a way as to avoid getting caught up in them as best as possible.

Suppose I stop behind another vehicle at lights and don't think to myself "so where do I go here if the bloke behind me doesn't stop?" and suppose the bloke behind doesn't stop.

I could say "I am an innocent victim here, it wasn't my fault, it was his" or I could say "I stuffed up, I should've had an out and should've been watching my mirrors".

The second attitude I think is the wiser one.

I can see why Saphena thinks most of his close shaves have some measure of his own contribution. All mine have. In each one with hindsight I can think of things I could've done but didn't (through laziness or ignorance or distraction) to avoid the incident.

Despite many of them technically being "not my fault".

saphena · 01-07-2013, 05:01 PM

Ok, let's clear up all the misunderstanding

When I say "contribute" I'm not talking about what the insurance companies call "fault" or "blame", I don't care about that at all. If I'm involved in a collision (not an accident) with you, I will do my level best to convince you and the insurers that it was entirely your fault and I was completely blameless.

I'm interested in collision avoidance. When I leave home on my bike I have no intention of being involved in a collision and I will do my level best to avoid either causing one or allowing anyone else to involve me in one.

My contribution to my collisions and near misses has been limited to failures on my part to anticipate correctly, failures to react quickly enough to someone else's mistake and so on. My daughter's boyfriend was involved in a collision shortly after passing his driving test and, as she put it, "he wasn't to blame for the accident but it wouldn't have happened to you."

As far as training goes, I have had and continue to have more than many on this forum. I also have 40 years driving in the UK and just about everywhere in Europe, Scandinavia, US and Canada including some "spectaculars" like the M25 in Kent & Surrey, the Brussels ring road and the Periphique in Paris. It's a combination of training and experience which have led me to the admittedly hard-nosed and uncompromising attitude shown here.

Let the insurers concern themselves with "whose fault is it" because that won't help when you're lying in the gutter because you failed to compensate for someone else's stupidity, laziness or outright malice.

Is that clearer now?

Durbud · 01-07-2013, 07:41 PM

1. I am invisible

2. It's their first day driving

3. They are all trying to kill me

4. If they flash their headlights at me it's because they are happy to see me not because my high beams are on......(they are all the time)

alexibrow · 01-08-2013, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durbud

1. I am invisible

2. It's their first day driving

3. They are all trying to kill me

4. If they flash their headlights at me it's because they are happy to see me not because my high beams are on......(they are all the time)

Please turn your high beams off. You're dazzling other road users for no good reason.

GDCobra · 01-08-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphena

I'm sorry you chaps feel special about this. Let me see if I can explain myself a little better.

When I'm out on my bike (or in a car for that matter but especially on the bike) I consider that every other road user (car, van, motorcycle, pedestrian, whatever) falls into one of two categories:

First category - those who can't (or don't) see me, for whatever reason - their fault, physiology, pyschology, bad weather, my black clothing, whatever.

Second category - those who are out to kill me.

In practice I don't distinguish between the two categories. I don't need to because in either case I have to take complete responsibility for my own safety.

There is nothing I can do to make other people's behaviour better, there is nothing any of you can do to make other people's behaviour better, there is nothing the government can do to make other people's behaviour better and even if I/you/the government could do something to improve other people's behaviour - we'd all still have to take complete responsibility for our own safety.

No I don't work for an insurance company. Yes I do ride in real (and I do mean "real") traffic and I do know that I definitely contributed to every close call I've ever had.

Please continue believing that you are a helpless victim of someone else's poor performance if that's what makes you happy, you won't necessarily die as a consequence.

I completely agree with that attitude, even when things don't go wrong I look at how I could have done better and reduced risk. I think due to a motorcycle being my first means of transport I also learned to read other road users even down to the type of car (and colour), its 'body language', down to age and headgear of the driver, all of this has helped me avoid accidents. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the most dangerous drivers are the best drivers. Sounds stupid I know but if you drive for just a few seconds behind a reverse baseball capped chav in a pimped up Corsa surely you expect (know) that s/he's going to have an accident sooner rather than later, likewise the cotton top in the Nissan Micra so you're on your guard and if you get involved in their accident more fool you, but the well driven clean, staight decent car which you have observed driving smoothly with good lane discipline, signalling and so on may lull you into a false sense of security but remember even the best of us make mistakes now and again

Bron-Yr-Aur · 01-08-2013, 12:30 PM

Haha this has been fun gentlemen. I guess I'll try to clear it up, also. I'm thinking my wordiness betrayed my intent. I actually agree with those posts that I apparently came off as countering. My only difference in opinion is the use of the word "contribute." Possibly it carries another feeling across the pond. But the use of that word, along with saphena's initial post where I was quoted, felt as if I were being blamed for those close calls. I think that is evidenced by other fellow statesmen's comments about "you must be an insurance agent." After reading these, I think it just came down to semantics. I hope I didn't come across as contrary, as much of what I say in posts stating my opinion are written tongue-in-cheek, to varying degrees. They are, after all, just my opinion, of which not even half of my family agrees with

.

I will stand by one thing, though, at least regarding my personal experiences. There are situations that entirely rest on the other person. If I'm obeying the law (i.e. not speeding, driving recklessly) it is still possible to be blindsided by a distracted driver. That was all I was saying. When nothing could have possibly been done, I do not feel that the rider "contributed", or added to, the situation. Again, that's just how I see that word.

However, I do not feel like the helpless victim out there. I truly would stop riding if I felt like that, because that would feel as if I were playing Russian Roulette. And I'm not that adventurous. But, as I stated, I agree in all situations of planning for every person out there to possibly kill me with their car. Riding where I'm visible, instead of just in "my lane," slowing and checking even at green lights where I have the "right of way," which doesn't really exist when a person is on a motorcycle.

And GD, hadn't heard of cotton-tops. Made me laugh. I'll have to add that one to my vernacular.