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Twins Talk Discussion of Hinckley Triumph Twin related matters and topics.

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Old 10-24-2009, 08:08 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The worldwide W650 production run was much longer than many in the US realize. The bike was first introduced in Asia (perhaps in Europe also) in 1998 or 1999 as a 1999 model. I don't believe the bike was initially intended for the US market, but was designed to feed a growing retro movement in Japan at the time. But like so many bikes with a short US run, Kaw was pushed by its dealers to bring it Stateside, encouraged by the cries from the bike mag editors of 'bring it .... we'll buy it'. With typical result ..... bring it, we'll look at it, and not buy it. So the W was only in the US for model years 2000 and 2001. Then ... poof, gone. The introduction of the Bonneville played some part in that, as did the fact that the bike came from an Asian, not a European or UK manufacturer.

However, the bike continued to be sold in markets where it did somewhat better. I believe the W was sold in Germany and other European and Asian countries through 2007 or 2008, where it came in a wide variety of (fuel tank) colors. A shorter stroke version (less expensive too ... no kick starter) was introduced in Asia because of either tiered licensing or tiered insurance regulations. This was the W400. Don't know if it is still around, but doubtful.

I think it is safe to say ....... if you like your Triumph only because it is a Triumph, you wouldn't like the W650. If you like your Triumph because of how it sounds, feels, looks, handles, etc, you would be happy to have a W650 share garage space with your Bonnie. Even the tool kit made you smile .... chrome plated wrenches in a tool roll that stored under the saddle. Very British of the Japanese, old chap!

BTW Rodburner. Looks good. So you went from stock, to the custom aluminum coolers, to using the bottom frame tubes as a cooler (that can't be!? ..... where are you hiding the cooler now?) I know you've monitored engine oil temps from day one as you made these changes. What's the typical oil operating temperature with your current setup (as compared to the custom coolers and stock cooler)?

Bob
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I think that generally, the more power you make the more heat you get. This is made worse when you have to run lean to meet modern emission standards. Air cooling is simple and light but it does have limitations, such as uneven distribution of heat. Liquid cooling, oil or water, allows designers to help even out the hot spots to avoid engine damage under extreme conditions. Also, air cooled engines tend to be noisier than water cooled engines. Perhaps the wimpy sounding pipes on the stock Triumphs would be even worse if they hadn't designed in the oil cooling.
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ohiorider View Post
I think it is safe to say ....... if you like your Triumph only because it is a Triumph, you wouldn't like the W650. If you like your Triumph because of how it sounds, feels, looks, handles, etc, you would be happy to have a W650 share garage space with your Bonnie. Even the tool kit made you smile .... chrome plated wrenches in a tool roll that stored under the saddle. Very British of the Japanese, old chap!
There actually is a W650 sharing garage space with my Bonnie right now! I've had the W650 for nearly a year, only bought the Bonnie a couple of weeks ago to fill the space left after the unfortunate demise of my 600 Bandit...

I do find that the 650 tends to run very hot, sometimes giving problems with hot starting due to fuel evaporation - from what I hear this is a fairly common problem with them. Whether that's down to not having an oil cooler I don't know, but it doesn't happen with the Bonnie...
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Old 10-24-2009, 01:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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What is it that differs between the Kawasaki W650 engine and the Triumph 865 engine such that the 865 requires an obtrusive oil cooling radiator and hoses tapped into the heads?
The W650 engine is much cleaner/classic.

ted.
Ted,

Just think of the oil cooler as added reliability, longer life and all the good things. Personally I think they look good, better than a full size radiator.
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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There actually is a W650 sharing garage space with my Bonnie right now! I've had the W650 for nearly a year, only bought the Bonnie a couple of weeks ago to fill the space left after the unfortunate demise of my 600 Bandit...

I do find that the 650 tends to run very hot, sometimes giving problems with hot starting due to fuel evaporation - from what I hear this is a fairly common problem with them. Whether that's down to not having an oil cooler I don't know, but it doesn't happen with the Bonnie...
Wow! Mine ran like a watch for 52,000 miles, with no overheating, hard starting, fuel evaporation, or any of the symptoms you're calling out. Out of curiosity, what color are your headers? Mine, with stock jetting, stayed shiny chrome for all the miles I rode it. I've seen a few pix of other W650s with headers blued like our Bonnies. Strange, because the W came with double wall pipes, and in theory, shouldn't blue. Wish I had a solution to your hot running issues, but for all the time I owned the bike (2000-2007) and was on the W650 Forum, hard starting and fuel evaporation weren't hot topics. I'll cut and paste a copy of your issues and post them to the W Forum, and see if I can get an answer for you, if you'd like me to do so. Though I haven't been active there for some time, I'm hopeful someone may offer a solution for you.

Bob
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Old 10-24-2009, 06:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Oil cooling necessity

Thanks for the replys dealing with the topic.

I wonder if the W650 has interior oil lines (like the Harley engines I believe) and therefore do not require the exterior lines running to the cam cover area.??

Also, I wonder if the oil cooler was mostly put on the 865 for those folks driving in traffic in Tucson in high summer? (as opposed to guys like me whose highest summer temps hardly ever go beyond 75 degrees)

Sure would like a knowledgeable reply, I find the oil cooler on the Bonnie very interesting.

Ted.

If poosible I would like to run sans radiator and oil lines like those in the pic.
Attached Thumbnails
W650 vs Bonnie 865 & oil cooling-rocker-oil-lines-screws-norton-example.jpg  

Last edited by LuckyBonnie; 10-24-2009 at 06:14 PM. Reason: sentence structure
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Old 10-24-2009, 06:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Hey Bob

That's very kind of you! I have seen mention of people having similar problems, but the general consensus seems to be "run it on higher octane fuel and it'll be fine"... I use Silkolene Pro FST which seems to help...

My downpipes are nice and shiny with no sign of blueing, but as you say, they are double walled so it would be weird if there was. Were the ones you've seen with blue pipes running on the stock system?

I may have made it sound worse than it is. Most of the time it runs just fine, but sometimes on a hot day when I've been riding for a while and stop briefly, it just doesn't want to start until it's cooled down a bit. Stop for fuel, it's fine - stop for fuel and a smoke, it doesn't like it. But stop for fuel, smoke and a coffee and it's fine again. It's like there's a five minute window of unwillingness to play...

This has only happened four or five times in the ten months and 8000 miles I've had the bike, so it's not a big deal, but definitely does run hotter than the Triumph...

I'm running completely stock exhausts, airbox and jetting by the way, and still have the air injection thing fitted. I've been thinking about altering stuff but I can't seem to find any clear advice on the best route to follow...

Thanks for your help!!
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Old 10-24-2009, 06:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beemerrich View Post
About 20 RWHP. The W650 doesn't need the extra cooling.

As far as which is more classic - including pedigree - one is a retro british bike and the other is a retro japanese bike of a japanese copy of a british bike. Hmmmm...

Cheers,

--Rich
well said !
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Old 10-24-2009, 06:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyBonnie View Post
I wonder if the W650 has interior oil lines

Also, I wonder if the oil cooler was mostly put on the 865 for those folks driving in traffic in Tucson in high summer? (as opposed to guys like me whose highest summer temps hardly ever go beyond 75 degrees)
Lots of Japanese bike engines don't have external oil lines. The oil for the cam area travels up around one or more of the cylinder/head holding studs. The oil then drains down the camchain tunnel.

There are some exceptions. On engines which form a stressed part of the frame, the crankcase/barrel/head joint has to be very rigid, often fitted with solid copper gaskets, and for a variety of reasons external oillines are provided. My XV1100 Yamaha is one of those.

To a large extent all engines are partly oil-cooled. The average engine carries very little oil and it does get very hot and degrade quickly. Witnesss the short oil change intervals in older motorcycle engines. One solution is to make the sump a lot larger so it can hold a lot of oil, and also to provide generous (and bulky) sump finning. This makes the engine a lot bulkier.

One solution is to carry a reasonable quantity of oil and provide a second oil pump to circulate lots of oil around the hotter parts of the engine and then get rid of the heat using a small unobtrusive radiator.
The oil has an easier life (notice the longer oil change intervals on oil/air cooled engines), the engine runs a lot quieter mechanically. This helps to meet noise regulations without resorting to water jackets or fairings. Mechanical noise makes up a large proportion of the total noise emitted by a bike.

Last edited by Forchetto; 10-25-2009 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:52 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Oil Cooling the 865

<QUOTE>One solution is to carry a reasonable quantity of oil and provide a second oil pump to circulate lots of oil around the hotter parts of the engine and then get rid of the heat using a small unobtrusive radiator.<UNQUOTE>


Thank you Forchetto, maybe run the smaller oil lines rearward to a after market "oil bag" (Harleyism) mounted in or around the air box/NARK. Could probably add a liter of oil to the total. Some cooling would also occur from the longer oil lines too?

In the case of Harley engines I think it is easy to upgrade the oil pump to higher CFM as the pump is mounted on the outside of the cases. Don't know where it is on the 865? or if it could easily be upgraded for better CFM.

Maybe a second pump can be mounted on or in the oil bag?

Thank you for addressing the question Forchetto.

Lately I have been mulling it over but am no kind of engineer/mechanic.

Ted
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