Triumphrat

eddieg · 10-18-2009, 06:50 AM

Hey guys
i recently noticed my 02 tt600 blowing blue smoke after only 24000ks.After a leakdown test & compression test at my local triumph dealer they told me that the rings were bad.They also told me for around $2000 they could rebuild my engine witch is around the same price that the wreckers want for an engine with low ks,i just wanted to know what most of you guys would do if you where in the same position.
cheers.

BombFactory · 10-18-2009, 02:21 PM

At 24,000 ks (about 15k miles), I'm surprised the rings are bad. Do you know if the bike was ever overheated, run low on oil, or flooded with fuel to the point of washing the cylinder walls?

If I were in the same spot, I would take it to another shop for a second opinion to make sure a leak down test is showing bad rings.

If the rings are in fact bad, it is a toss-up. I'd be tempted to replace only the rings, which should cost much less than $2,000. However, if the rings are bad due to overheating or oil problems, chances are the bearings aren't going to last as long as a healthy engine's would. Because of that, it may be a better investment to get a used engine. At the same time, buying a used engine is a risk, as you have no idea how it was treated, maintained, etc.

In the states, it seems low-mileage engines are going for about $600-800, so it is far different from $2,000. If you cannot get your hands on a good used engine for a lot less than what the dealership will rebuild the old one for (maybe half the price), I'd be more inclined to either have just the rings replaced or have the engine rebuilt rather than trusting a used engine.

eddieg · 10-19-2009, 09:48 AM

hey mate
thanks for the reply,i will be taking my bike to another triumph dealer for a second opinion but if its the same i think i will go with getting my engine rebuilt as it seems all the wreckers in australia want between $1500 to $2000 for an engine.i have owned this bike since it was only a couple of months old allways had it serviced and it has never overheated or had any oil trouble but it has lost compression twice,witch the mechanics put down to fuel fluding the bores,im not sure what that does????? i think they just put a litttle bit of 2stroke down each bore and it started back up strait away.
cheers..

BombFactory · 10-23-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddieg

hey mate
thanks for the reply,i will be taking my bike to another triumph dealer for a second opinion but if its the same i think i will go with getting my engine rebuilt as it seems all the wreckers in australia want between $1500 to $2000 for an engine.i have owned this bike since it was only a couple of months old allways had it serviced and it has never overheated or had any oil trouble but it has lost compression twice,witch the mechanics put down to fuel fluding the bores,im not sure what that does????? i think they just put a litttle bit of 2stroke down each bore and it started back up strait away.
cheers..

Hopefully the other diagnosis will not be as severe. Fuel flooding a cylinder will not cause a loss of compression, so I'm not sure what the issue is. If a cylinder is flooded continuously with fuel (known as a "cylinder wash"), the fuel washes away the oil from the rings and cylinder wall. This causes metal-to-metal friction and can damage the rings and wall, leading to compression failure. However, it would have been apparent to the rider if the engine flooded enough to cause a wash, as it would either try to stall, run very poorly, and/or bellow black smoke. Good luck.

British Oldgit · 11-24-2009, 08:33 PM

hi eddieg,

A possible answer to your problem

I had a smoking problem with my 2002 tt600, finally tracked the problem down to a faulty oil seal behind the right hand engine cover. My bike would smoke intermittently usually when waiting at traffic lights and would pump out blue smoke for around 20 mins and then stop again. Changing the breather oil seal in the right hand engine cover cured the problem. It cost me around £24 for the seal and it has not pump out blue smoke since, hope this helps before you pay out for an engine rebuild.

Tonybaloney · 11-24-2009, 08:57 PM

There's no way to tell exactly how extensive a rebuild will be required without a teardown and inspection. If the piston-to-cylinder clearance is within spec, you may be able to get by with honing and ring replacement. If not, overboring and appropriate new pistons would be in order. End gaps on the new rings must be set to spec. While the motor is apart, a thorough disassembly of the cylinder head is a good idea. Check for valve guide-to-stem tolerance and do a valve job, preferably a good, three angle seat cut and check if the valves themselves are concentric. Any seat grinding will require a check of assembled valve height and possible valve spring shimming. There's a lot more to it than declaring what's needed from just a leakdown test.

BombFactory · 11-25-2009, 10:47 AM

eddieg, did you ever get another shop to look at the motorcycle? How'd it turn out?

Tonybaloney, you have good advice, but I don't think a complete tear-down is necessary at 14,000 miles/24,000 km unless there is obvious debris in the oil that would suggest the bearings might be hurt. A valve job certainly isn't needed at such low wear on the engine, unless a fluke failure occurred.

As for the pistons and rings, it would be cheaper to replace the liners and use the stock pistons rather than over-boring and buying over-sized pistons. Although personally have never done this to a TT600 engine, there are members who claim it can be done without splitting the cases.

showmetheway428 · 11-26-2009, 02:01 AM

If it came down to a new engine vs. an expensive and laborious engine rebuild, costs being the same I'd just buy a D650 engine and make it fit.

Probably best to check all the easiest things first before major engine work

Tonybaloney · 11-26-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BombFactory

eddieg, did you ever get another shop to look at the motorcycle? How'd it turn out?

Tonybaloney, you have good advice, but I don't think a complete tear-down is necessary at 14,000 miles/24,000 km unless there is obvious debris in the oil that would suggest the bearings might be hurt. A valve job certainly isn't needed at such low wear on the engine, unless a fluke failure occurred.

As for the pistons and rings, it would be cheaper to replace the liners and use the stock pistons rather than over-boring and buying over-sized pistons. Although personally have never done this to a TT600 engine, there are members who claim it can be done without splitting the cases.

Normally, you wouldn't think an engine would need anything other than oil changes and tuneups at that mileage, but when one goes sour, I'm a great believer in re-doing everything you have to take off to get to the problem. You never know until you disassemble and check whether or not a mis-seated valve caused a lean condition which led to oil consumption problems and by the time you have it apart, re-seating the valves is no big deal compared to buttoning it all up, discovering you missed something, and breaking it all down a second time. I would also check the head and cylinder for flatness since it's laying right there open, but that's just me.

BombFactory · 11-26-2009, 01:05 PM

Deck and head flatness can be checked without disassembling the engine any more than is needed to replace the rings. A mechanic will be able to tell if a valve is leaking from the vacuum test and leakdown test done when diagnosing the problem. Furthermore, if a valve is not seating, a visual inspection will show discoloration, and possibly tulliping, of the valve and surrounding area. If the head looks fine and the vacuum test showed good, steady vacuum, I cannot see the justification for disassembling and rebuilding the head or even lapping in the valves just to be sure. The same applies for the engine; if everything looks good, but a few rings failed, I don't see the need for a complete rebuild just to be sure. It really comes down to what the mechanics think is needed, as there are many variables that we do not know as to the condition of the engine, which is why I think it is important to get multiple estimates.