Triumphrat

dealsgapdragon · 05-31-2009

Problems like this make me think I exploded yet another engine.

A misfire started today about 5 minutes after first idle warmup. It seemed to clear up above 6000 rpm in all gears. But when I got on the highway, my top speed was only 65 mph at wide open throttle in 6th.

It felt and sounded like when spark plugs get severely fouled, or a plug wire falls off. Or when a bearing spins and welds itself to a crankshaft.

After about 5 minutes I realized it might be my radar detector causing EMF interferance. I turned it on approximately when the misfire started.

So I unplugged it, and the misfire disappeared.

This was the first time I'd used this detector, which has more channels than my old detector that seemed to work ok. But the last time I used my old detector was when it quit starting, requiring a new battery, stator and regulator. Coincidence?

So I'll do some diagnostics. I did rewire the charging system when I upgraded the regulator from a Honda CBR 1000, with a re-routed wiring harness. Coincidence?

Engine fans have been know to cause misfires in motorcycles, fixed by re-routing the wiring harness.

Note that radio transmitters in cars have been known to make other peoples cars and motorcycles stop running, in one case a police bike. Which might be a useful thing to know... A trucker biker told me today his 500 watt CB radio could make a Volkswagon Jetta stop running when it passed him, just by keying the mike.

A radar detector receiver does have an oscillator circuit operating at several billion hertz per second, though at low power. However state troopers carry VG2 radar detector detectors, that can receive signals from the detectors in passing cars. The wiring harness on a bike is much closer than that.

Has anyone else heard of this problem?

I need to fix this since the cops are still raising hell at Deals Gap. They arrested a sportiker or two today, impounded their bikes and took them to jail. Allegedly a (drunk?) Harley rider fell down because he used too much rear brake, starting crying for his mommy, and a bunch of cops showed up, so he blamed "those evil sportbikers" made him do it. The cops even stayed until after dark on the Dragon.

So I really need my detector working, if possible. Without the misfire. Maybe some EMP wire braid sheilding, or Faraday Cage for my CPU?

GNTurbo6 · 05-31-2009

Have you tried wearing a tinfoil hat yet?

dealsgapdragon · 06-01-2009

The upgrade recommended by DeCosse requires wiring the voltage regulator directly to the battery, which I did. My power cord for the radar detector plugs directly to the battery using the battery charger connector. This puts the radar detector into direct contact with the voltage regulator's "sensing voltage" (whatever that is). Both use an inline fuse. So perhaps the radar detector is dropping the voltage output from the voltage regulator, causing a misfire?

I think I'll try a microwave choke balun, to block any RF running down the wire back to the battery and CPU. 5 minutes work is the easiest fix, no cost, just roll my own.

Quote:

A BROADBAND MICROWAVE CHOKE

must be used to prevent microwave energy from entering power supply

Microwave Journal
December 1, 1999

All microwave devices that use DC power must have a method for preventing the microwave energy from entering the power supply. It is common practice to connect a microwave choke between the active microwave device and the power supply to prevent microwave energy from shorting out through the power supply. The power supply is microwave isolated from the microstrip circuit, and the DC power is typically blocked using a capacitor. This geometry is commonly known as a bias tee. The circuit is used in almost every microwave device as well as fiber-optic terminators.

Basically just coil the power cord around a small PVC pipe, with holes drilled in each end to hold the wire (or tape it), covered in heat shrink. That blocks RF AC but allows 12vdc to pass.

Coil Inductance Calculator

Or spend 5 bucks for an RF choke at Radio Shack, that snaps on the power cord. This seems to be a common fix for radar detectors interfereing with car electrics.

Will · 06-01-2009

As a probably irrelevant aside, my first car was a 1954 Triumph TR2. When tuning it up, I could put in unshielded copper spark plug leads. In order to keep from making an RF mess, you were supposed to use resistor spark plugs. I don't think either are available any more, partly because of people like me. I would run the unshielded cables and non-resistor plugs and screw up everybody else's car radio. I didn't have a radio (or a heater or a top which would stay on, or much else for that matter), so I didn't much care and got a certain amount of perverse joy out of making radios temporarily go haywire.

Beats me what other kinds of problems it caused, but RF static can cause all kinds of problems, especially when in close proximity to electronics. Finding a way to shield the power and other cables to your detector is probably the only way you can solve the issue.

Derswede · 06-01-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by dealsgapdragon

A misfire started today about 5 minutes after first idle warmup.SNIP
Which might be a useful thing to know... A trucker biker told me today his 500 watt CB radio could make a Volkswagon Jetta stop running when it passed him, just by keying the mike.

A radar detector receiver does have an oscillator circuit operating at several billion hertz per second, though at low power. However state troopers carry VG2 radar detector detectors, that can receive signals from the detectors in passing cars. The wiring harness on a bike is much closer than that.

Has anyone else heard of this problem?

No....you have a RECEIVER mounted (unless you have one of those bogus "radar jammers" installed....if so, toss it) and the amount of RF output is quite minimal. As for the problem, I'd be thinking more of a DC loading problem on a circuit. Heck, I had a 35W transceiver mounted on my bike for awhile....no problems (but mine is a carb model...). You need a sensitive RF "sniffer" (receiver) to pick up the Local Oscillator of a radar detector...the "output" is in the range of milliwatts to microwatts.

I'd do the following first....reroute DC directly to the battery for the RD (fused @ the battery). This will bypass all other circuitry and isolate the RD as well. Second, check all grounds, esp. around the ECU. A poor ground, with a bit of corrosion around it, can rectify an RF signal which can cause problems. Third, as a "hail mary" get some snap-on ferrites and put them on the harness that enters the ECU. RatShak used to carry them but don't know if they still have them available.

I'd try the "direct connect the RD" idea first...easy to implement. FWIW, I'm running a BEL 940 on the Sprint, as well as a GPS and the occasional amateur radio rig...no problems so far.

Derswede

dealsgapdragon · 06-02-2009

The detector was already wired directly to the battery. So is the voltage regulator (CBR 1000 upgrade).

Here's some basic test results:

Cobra XRS9400 11-Band VG2 "Radar Detector Detector Detector"
Whistler 925 Super Ka Laser (no VG2)

Quote:

Ignition OFF No Detector = 12.94 volts
Ignition OFF Whistler = 12.84 volts // EMF 0.0
Ignition OFF Cobra = 12.79 volts // EMF 0.0

Engine ON No Detector = 14.23 volts
Engine ON Whistler = 14.22 volts // EMF 0.0 // No Misfire
Engine ON Cobra = 14.22 volts // EMF 0.0 // Misfire

The misfire with the Cobra detector wasn't as bad as the other day, perhaps because I didn't let it idle too long and foul the plugs. So top speed was NOT maxed at 65 mph. Hard to recreate that electrical problem, partly because I was afraid of detonation and melting a piston.

After adding an RF choke from Radio Shack ($2.99 for 2) to the power cord, the misfire was cured at all speeds. But it took looping the power cord twice through the choke, and adding a couple air-loops in the power cord.

Cobra no short circuit, voltage ok

No EMF problem -- TVs peg EMF at max reading

Single wire requires electrical tape inside choke, not enough to cure misfire

Double loop cured 90% of misfire -- Larger choke would be better for double loop

dealsgapdragon · 06-02-2009

Air loop added enough inductance to cure 10% of the misfire

Bugly modified Whistler works good on a bike, but needs VG2

The Cobra works fine in my car, no misfire, probably because the car has metal sheilding and lots of RF protection for the radio CD.

It may not have the best range, but the VG2 gives warning for TN Highway Patrol who rarely turn on their radar, and have been caught lying in court about radar speed, when a deputy testified the trooper never turned radar on. (The lawyer told me the case was dismissed, and the judge ordered the trooper arrested for perjury, but the prosecutor obstructed justice and the judge failed to hold him in contempt of court.)

Can't hear a radar detector on a motorcycle, so I cut out the speaker on the Whistler and added a minijack for earphones. The butchered earphone speaker is more comfortable than earbuds. Needs a resistor to reduce the volume (4 ohms?), or position it away from the ear.

So after all that work, I won't be using the Cobra on the bike. But adding a choke to the power cord wont hurt when using the Whistler. Problem solved.

Cobra is not a popular brand of radar detector. Great CBs tho.

Here's video of the Cobra chasing Cobras and cops on the Dragon at Deals Gap. There's not a lot of prior warning, which allegedly is a problem with the Cobra, though that may be instant-on radar. This is why I need a detector on the bike.

As for radar detectors, I don't depend on them 100%, especally since most tickets are not for speeding. But they keep me alert, and give a little warning if a cop is hiding in the bushes, or lies in court.

dealsgapdragon · 06-04-2009

Note that the CellCensor might not have the correct range of frequency to detect radar transmission from the detector oscillator circuit, calibrated at less than 1 GHz. But it could measure harmonics.

Radar bands:

X= 10.525 GHz
K= 24.150 GHz
Ka = 33.8 GHz, 34.7 GHz
Photo Ka = 35.5 GHz

Quote:

CellCensor

A State-of-the-Art Cellular Phone/ELF Detection Meter Dual use meter featuring cellular phone RF radiation measurement as well as an accurate single-axis EMF Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) Gauss meter.

RF Detection

Detects and Measures the RF Radiation Emitted by Mobile Phones Calibrated around 835 MHz, this radiation meter will detect and measure power density expressed in milliWatts per centimeter (mW/cm2) emitted by analog or digital as well as GSM or PCS mobile phones. Two scales. High sensitivity scale 0-1 and Normal sensitivity scale 0-10 mW/cm2.

ELF Detection

EMF ELF Fields are No Longer a Mystery as the CellSensor Easily Detects and Measures Them An accurate and easy-to-use Gauss meter focused around 50-60 Hz EMF fields emitted by power lines, TV's, computer monitors and home appliances. Use of a remote probe with a 2 foot extension cord allows the user to reach any area while keeping an eye on field strength.

Two scales, 0-5 and 0-50 milliGauss with a relatively flat frequency response curve.

On Positioning the Probe

Make sure you are aligning the probe properly to measure the highest level of EMFs. If you are standing right underneath the power line, try the probe both parallel and perpendicular to the power lines. Always rotate the probe in space to find the highest reading as the CellSensor is a single axis meter.

The plastic fuel tank doesn't block RF/EMF interferance from the radar detector, which is right over the spark plugs. So perhaps the 0.0 reading was not accurate? Cobra detectors are alleged to transmit more RF than other detectors, triggering false alarms in other detectors.

Cobra does score low in comparison tests.

Radar detectors can transmit microwaves nearly 1 mile. Cops consider having a detector as probable cause for speeding, even without speeding, and will often sue a ticket instead of a warning is a detector is found or suspected, even in states where detectors are not "illegal".

Quote:

What is VG-2 or Spectre?

A Radar Detector Detector (RDD) is a microwave receiver used by police to detect signals radiated by the local oscillator (A circuit inside the detector) of a radar detector. The trade name of the commonly used RDD manufactured is Interceptor VG-2, most often simply referred to as VG-2. A newer device in this field is called Spectre and it can detect most of the "Undetectable" radar detectors that are on the market! Spectre has upgraded their RDD twice so far, to catch other detectors that tried to "hide" their emissions. Currently, the latest version is Spectre III (6/04).

An officer using a RDD typically parks next to a busy freeway and aims the device at a 45 degree angle across the traffic stream. The RDD acts just like a radar detector when it hears an approaching radar detector, increasing its audio alert rate and progressively lighting more LED's in its visual display. By observing the traffic and watching how the RDD responds, the officer can make an educated guess as to which vehicle is using a radar detector. Some detectors are "noisier" than others and can be detected by the RDD from as far away as 4,000 feet.

In Virginia, the largest user of the RDD's, officers are not empowered to search a vehicle unless visible signs are present to support the RDD's guess that a radar detector is in the targeted vehicle. Important: A missing cigarette lighter plug, dangling power cord, Velcro on the dash, a mounting bracket on the windshield or visor will tip the officer as to the possible presence of a detector and allow him to search for it. If found, the detector isn't confiscated; the officer notes its serial number, checks to see if it's operational, then hands it back to the driver - along with a citation for having used it.

Australian Spectre RDD spots detectors at 1 mile

Where is an RDD (VG-2, Spectre) used?

At present the police in Virginia, Washington DC and the five eastern Canadian provinces employ RDD's. Because of the recent FHwA regulation which prohibits nationally the use of radar (and laser) detectors in commercial vehicles, interest in the use of RDD's by law enforcement agencies has increased.

NOTE: It is the responsibility of the individual radar detector owner to know the laws in your area regarding the legality of the use of laser/radar detectors.

What is Non detectable or VG-2 immunity?

These terms identify a radar detector that can not be detected by VG-2. Radar Detectors that are non detectable have their circuitry tuned outside of the VG-2 "listening" frequency or have reduced the emissions emitting from the antenna. Stealth is another term for immunity used by radar detector manufacturers. See important Spectre RDD information above as most detectors once called "Undetectable" are no longer safe.

BombFactory · 06-04-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will

As a probably irrelevant aside, my first car was a 1954 Triumph TR2. When tuning it up, I could put in unshielded copper spark plug leads. In order to keep from making an RF mess, you were supposed to use resistor spark plugs. I don't think either are available any more, partly because of people like me. I would run the unshielded cables and non-resistor plugs and screw up everybody else's car radio. I didn't have a radio (or a heater or a top which would stay on, or much else for that matter), so I didn't much care and got a certain amount of perverse joy out of making radios temporarily go haywire.

Beats me what other kinds of problems it caused, but RF static can cause all kinds of problems, especially when in close proximity to electronics. Finding a way to shield the power and other cables to your detector is probably the only way you can solve the issue.

Yep, you can still get solid copper/copper plated core spark plug wires that do wonders to RFI and an electronic engine management system. They are advertised as racing equipment for carbureted engines, but one would have to be nuts to use them anywhere near an electronic engine management system; although I’m sure someone has!

dealsgapdragon · 06-04-2009

Cobra also rates FAIL for false alerts on other detectors.

Which means a 2nd radar detector can be used as a poor-man's spectrum analyzer and frequency counter, to check for IF RF leakage from the main detector. This saves $20,000.

That's all Spectre is, a radar detector amped up with wideband IF-freq reception.

Good detectors have a metal case, as a Faraday shield. Or a grounded metal box could be added. Steel blocks RF and magnetic EMF, aluminum only blocks RF.

I'll do some more tests. I'm really not too happy with my Cobra now, which seems to give a false sense of security, with barely a warning before seeing a cop. Experts call Cobra a "Ticket Notifer". Not good with a 160 mph vehicle.