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Thunderbird Twin - Technical Talk Technical talk for the big Thunderbird twin

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Old 09-16-2012, 11:24 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougl View Post
You may be right but how does a mole of isooctane have the same heat of combustion as a mole of ethanol? They change the blend seasonally here so when they add 10% mtbe, do they boost the octane rating by replacing some benzene or hexane with heptane or isooctane?

MOLE? What does a blind, dirt chewing rodent have to do with my T'Bird? I'm so confused about this whole gas thing, I'm just going to have to find the motorcycle version of the Volt.

Life used to be so simple ... just spend an extra 20 cents per gallon to get the good stuff and don't worry about it. Now, I can't sleep at night worrying about what octane to use ... I'm so sick with worry, I can't even ride anymore!

I knew I shouldn't have slept through chemistry class (although I did pull a C).
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:06 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Took a 200 mile ride today. After about 45 miles I needed to gas up. I've been running 89, but the Marathon station only had 87 and 91. So I filled up on 91. It ran strong after the fill up, but I refused to let my ass think it was running better with 91, but it may have. But for sure I had less popping on quick deceleration. Am I imaging things? BTW, I'm running the long TORs with the proper tune and stock air filter.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:04 PM   #93 (permalink)
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only 93 for my baby. why chance it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:27 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Oops, I meant 93.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:48 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I've been playing around with this for a couple of months .... here are my observations:

I live in Canada where there is no mandate for ethanol in gas, so there is a choice... you can go to a station that has ethanol, and others that don't.

I'm pretty sure that I notice a difference when using ethanol blends, no matter the octane, when I'm riding in the USA. In Canada I tank at Shell/Chevron which have no ethanol in their blends. (or, at least it doesn't say so on the pumps)

I notice no difference whether I'm using 94 octane (my usual), 91 (Shell maximum octane) but when I dip down to 87 octane it seems a bit laggy on the trottle, but not consistently.

My conclusion is that I just avoid ethanol blends, and then not worry about the rest. I'll take anything over 87.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:56 PM   #96 (permalink)
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I concur with most of you. 89 octane rating and up offer a consistently quiet and strong ride that doesn't seem to change at all between 89 and 93 (85-93 can be found in KS). The suggested 87 rated fuel seems to cause my storm to run a little sluggish on the throttle and a little noisier down the road.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:58 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Higher octane fuels

I am so glad you said this - as I was worried about the assertions that Higher Octane leads o damage would push people to use lower octane (and more variable) and REALLY cause damage.

Long time ago, I did mileage checks on "Adequate" octane fuel vs Highest octane fuel, in bikes and cars, mostly all performance engines. (WRX, TRD, Hayabusa, and Storm)

Consistently I get better milage and cleaner running with Australian BP98.

It also goes a long way to making the extra cost no cost, as the extra milage almost negates the cost. So the remaining small "unrecouped"cost I am happy with to treat my engine to better fuel.


Enjoy...


Quote:
Originally Posted by slotter32 View Post
In Australia our fuel octane ratings are:

Unleaded (ULP) 91
Premium Unleaded (PULP) 95
High Performance Unleaded (typically BP Ultimate, Shell Optimax, Vortex 98) 98

I personally run BP Ultimate which is 98 octane. It is a cleaner burning fuel and lays down less deposits inside the combustion chamber for not that much extra cost.

Some comments here about higher octane fuels causing harm to the Thunderbird engine are wrong. The higher the octane number the higher the fuels resistance is to detonation which is an uncontrolled ignition or pre-ignition of the fuel before the controlled ignition from that of the spark plug. In actual fact running higher octane fuel in an engine designed for lower only hurts you in the back pocket because of the higher cost. The reverse is true though in using lower octane fuels in an engine designed for high octane but using low octane instead. That is when real engine damage occurs. And that is because the low octane fuel will ignite prematurely as the generally higher compression (and therefore higher heat) ignites the fuel while the piston is still on it's compression or up stroke causing the ignited fuel to push back against the still rising piston. This will cause detonation or pinging in most engines but in worst cases things like push rods bend and sometimes pistons fail etc. To correct Lantesh with his comment on octane rating it is not the fuels resistance to ignition but rather the fuels resistance to detonation. The spark from the spark plugs will ignite both standard and higher grade octanes on queue. It is no more difficult to make the ignition of the fuel to happen for the engine with either octane but the higher octane will resist the uncontrolled pre-ignition when it is not meant to happen.

So in summary the higher octane fuel is better for the engine and not harmful. If the Storm or the big bore 1700 engine has indeed a higher compression than the 1600 engine then it will benefit more so than the standard bike but trust me the 1600 (like mine) will still burn all the fuel injected into it's chamber when the spark plug tells it to but will do it with less deposits left behind by using 98 octane fuel.

Cheers,

Glen
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:09 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Mileage

Interesting you now say, What can a dyno do other than tell me what I already know, and yet you dont let him "KNOW"what is already a known fact to him about his ride.

If for a given number of litres of fuel you get an increased milage on higher octane fuel - measured, can you explain why it is of no use and how you believe the engine is not benefitting or even noticing?

I dont need to be abused by the way - just contributing to the knowledge base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee H View Post
Ok someone just hit one of my pet peeves...personally, I think that the current dyno trend closely resembles something secreted from the north end of a southbound male bovine.

I worked in the first shop in my area to have a dyno. At the time I loved it. I would get an engine close, then ride it and fine tune the bike. Now people are obsessed with the top number. 99.999% of them do not even know what they are looking at, when they see the chart, or at what point the horsepower and torque curves should cross. Dynos have become the crutch of those who really could not tune an air fuel mixture and a timing advance curve otherwise.

The first thing people should realize about a dyno is that the horsepower curve is absolutely useless for street. if you are looking for that peak number, you are one of the people who does not know what they are looking at (sorry to be so blunt, but it is true). That number is only pertinent at a very very narrow RPM window. One that you very rarely ever see on the street.
One fact that very few people realize is that real engine builders only use the horsepower peak to set the rev limiter. it means nothing else to the builder. What Carrol Shelby said about horsepower selling cars, but torque winning races was absolutely true. it is the torque curve that makes you feel like the acceleration is going to dislocate your arms and peal the skin off your face. Torque is what makes a bike or car feel fast. Tuning in a good torque curve is what makes a satisfying performer. When you just look at horsepower the engine is "peaky" and feels like a weak two stroke. The engine builder knows this and knows that power is always a compromise. You trade off a little peak power to make it pull harder through a wider RPM range

on my own daily rider, I have an air/fuel meter. I adjust for proper air fuel ratio for what I want the bike to do. If my mixture is perfect, what can dyno tuning do for me, besides print out a paper, with a result I all ready know?
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:13 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Energy release during combustion

Umm, and..

A fuel with a higher octane rating is less prone to auto-ignition and can withstand a greater rise in temperature during the compression stroke of an internal combustion engine without auto-igniting, thus allowing more power to be extracted from the Otto-Cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee H View Post
this is true, to a point

what you say about octane being a detonation retardant is 100% true. Octane does not change the burn rate of gasoline, only the flash point at which it ignites. There is absolutely no reason to run fuel with a higher octane rating than what is necessary to suppress preignition. What that means in Layman's terms is that if your engine is not "pinging" there is absolutely no gain in running higher octane gasoline.
All the old bench racing stories about someone's brother's friend's cousin putting racing fuel in his car/motorcycle and gaining enough horsepower to beat every other car in the county, are just that. Bench racing STORIES.

For those who want a little more out of their bikes, there is some room to "tune" an engine though. Factory ignition curves are often made "foolproof" . Meaning that any fool can operate within these parameters. If you choose to run higher octane gasoline all the time, you can advance the timing, and run a more aggressive advance curve. This does give more power and a better throttle response
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:09 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler B View Post
The suggested 87 rated fuel seems to cause my storm to run a little sluggish on the throttle and a little noisier down the road.
The owner's manual says 87 but the factory manual does say min 89 for the Storm. Just a little confusion.
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