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secondaries ?

4K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  dougl 
#1 ·
I ride alot in mountains. With secondaries removed, how will that effect corner exits in lower gears? I have classic model 06. Are the secondary plates stealing power in the higher gears as well? Trying to decide if to remove them or not! Thanks.
 
#3 ·
you will get use to IT



Pull them,Iam at you altitude and no problems..Rode over two years with just the triumph after market muffler tune In It with no poping or any problems..Does yours pop at all??mine does not and the only reason I can figure Is the altitude..Now have just the PClll with plates removed and It seems perfect...Jack
 
#6 ·
secondaries

Pull them,Iam at you altitude and no problems..Rode over two years with just the triumph after market muffler tune In It with no poping or any problems..Does yours pop at all??mine does not and the only reason I can figure Is the altitude..Now have just the PClll with plates removed and It seems perfect...Jack
Thanks jack. Mine doesnt pop either. Just a fart now and then at low rpm when rolling on the throttle, and a flat spot here and there.
 
#4 ·
You can't just remove the secondary plates without compensating for the missing fuel. If the ECU thinks only half the air is getting in, it supplies correspondingly less fuel than it would if it thought the secondaries were 100% open which is what will happen when you take them out.

The solution is to use Tuneboy to tell the ECU to open the secondaries 100% or put in a PCIII to add the missing fuel.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Dougl trumpete

Well then I got away with murder for over 7000 miles.Why didn't I fry a piston..Trumpete If you have a manual read page 11.133 Engine management adaption..You can get away with more than sea level guys..If this ECM did not adapt some one on here would have fried a motor by now..And I think thats the only thing that hasen't happened. The ECM designers knew what would be going on with performance freeks changing things..Dougl,I wish I was close enough to race you..The tune boy ain't the only thing to make these things run. The stock manifold air pressure sensor tells the ECM that the secondarys are out and jacks up the fuel..Trumpete all you can do to prove this Is pull them and ride,If Its going to damage your engine you will sure know It by the way It runs..Just ck your plugs,they are the first thing to fry..I have been through this with the ZX 14 flies (secondaries) and two hayabusas.Your ECM will adapt...Jack Oh yea ,do the resistor mod then all the ECU has to worry about Is 4th gear..
 
#9 · (Edited)
Well then I got away with murder for over 7000 miles.Why didn't I fry a piston..
Knock on wood. I thought you said you had a PCIII. If you do, and your underlying Triumph tune was as I described. You wouldn't see any problem. If you don't, it just means your tuning isn't optimal.

The stock manifold air pressure sensor tells the ECM that the secondarys are out and jacks up the fuel..
Interesting theory. As far as I know, MAP is used to to control fuel in the L tables - which is for throttle positions less than 6%. If the ECU was so adaptive, why the need for all the stock Triumph tunes?
 
#10 · (Edited)
Dougl

Dougl ,I had no PClll for 7000 miles.. NO It was not optimal,the Pc proved that but It ran fine. And no poping like every one else seems to go through..I'am just saying that unless you rip out every sensor on the bike your not gona damage your engine..I doubt anyones bike here Is at the optimum..Whats your altitude?? Do you think our barometric sensors are totally accurate??They must be close, I can go from 11.000 FT to 6.500 and It runs perfect..With PC or with out..Jack Oh Pigger says the only change he sees In the diferent triumph tunes Is to the secondaries..Not all that much different.. (-If the ECU was so adaptive, why the need for all the stock Triumph tunes-) Why Is adaption In the service manual.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Dougl ,I had no PClll for 7000 miles.. NO It was not optimal,the Pc proved that but It ran fine. And no poping like every one else seems to go through..I'am just saying that unless you rip out every sensor on the bike your not gona damage your engine..I doubt anyones bike here Is at the optimum..Whats your altitude?? Do you think our barometric sensors are totally accurate??They must be close, I can go from 11.000 FT to 6.500 and It runs perfect..With PC or with out..Jack Oh Pigger says the only change he sees In the diferent triumph tunes Is to the secondaries..Not all that much different.. (-If the ECU was so adaptive, why the need for all the stock Triumph tunes-) Why Is adaption In the service manual.
What does the barometric sensor have to do with the MAP sensor?. Yes, we have seen adaptive behavior at low throttle positions when the ECU is in closed loop. If you're running at half throttle, closed loop and MAP don't apply. Fuel is regulated by TP and RPM. If your secondaries table says 50%, by what mechanism does the ECU simply ignore this and add more fuel? Maybe when you took the plates out, you fixed the bar so that the sensor thinks the plates are wide open all the time? Maybe this overrides the secondaries table.

As far as backfiring goes, if you have a freer flowing exhaust, it's going to backfire in the pipes. The problem is too lean in the L tables at low TP which you have to mediate by adding fuel to the L tables or to a PCIII trim.

All of the adaptive stuff in chapter 11 appears to refer to closed loop conditions.

Maybe Pig9r can present a real explanation. My initial verbiage on the secondaries table came from Wayne of Tuneboy, who needs to deal with these issues or else his product won't work.
 
#12 ·
You are both right.

First of all it is small throttle openings that are closed loop. Small as in up to 15% TP in the 2200 to 3000 RPM range and progressing to a wider RPM range as TP decreases. In those areas the ECU will adapt and trim the fuel table in order to achieve 14.57 to 1 A/F ratio via the O2 sensor. When you reset adaptions you are wiping the fuel trim table so it can rebuild to the current set up. The baro sensor resides in the air box which would lead me to believe it takes a reading just prior to start up. That could also be why Triumph recommends a 12 min tune when there are significant changes in altitude. Though it is only small throttle openings that are closed loop, you will find that most of your miles are traveled at those throttle positions, mainly at highway speeds. So without the secondaries closing in those areas you are fine, the ECU will adapt. When changes occur in altitude and you are primarily in those ranges (including when you close the throttle) your bike will adapt.

At larger throttle openings, the bike will not adapt. As Doug stated Wayne has made reference to this and advised that it could be an issue. However, the stock fuel maps are quiet a bit richer at larger throttle openings so that is probably why it hasn't been a problem. Plus, even the most aggressive riders don't ride constantly at large throttle openings.

The stock tunes are very lean. And even with Wayne's 20050_3 tune I was at 16.5 to 1 A/F in the midrange.
 
#13 ·
Dougl Trumpete

So then the only thing that could have saved me from frying It was the o2 sensor and altitude..From the second day I had the bike the pipe was wide open and It has never back fired or popped even with the stock tune for stock pipes before I had the aftermarket pipe tune put In. If I removed the PClll and left the o2 disconected,then I think It might fry It. Trumpete,back to your question. You will see a difference with out them but Its not like a hit of nitrous. Just take It easy till you get use to It..Have fun Jack
 
#15 ·
You will see a difference with out them but Its not like a hit of nitrous. Just take It easy till you get use to It..Have fun Jack
I had my bike dynoed with the secondaries open 100% all the time and with them closed by the 20149 tune. The biggest difference was about 13 ft lbs of peak torque between about 2300 and 3500 rpm. This is a significant number, but you're right that with normal driving, it's difficult to tell the difference.
 
#14 ·
I don't think that yanking the secondaries alone would have causing your engine to fry. It would be really lean and run hotter. In the tunes for aftermarket exhaust Triumph controls the fuel mix by partially closing the secondaries in all gears.
 
#16 ·
After reading these posts i feel like I'm back on the Harley Forum again..Bear with me I'm a carpenter/builder....just curious ..is there a speed restriction on the stock bike...I have yet to reach the 140 mph or even come close for that matter...?Going from 80 hp+-on the RK to 140 hp on the R3 i thought i died and went to heaven.. I see alot of PC's on the Harleys with the K&N running pretty rich and alot of the times they have problems keeping them running properly or tuned to the right gas mixture..? By adding a PCIII or Tune boy to the Rocket does it make that much of a noticable differance...?
 
#17 ·
Very noticeable. Triumph limits power two ways. First in the first two gears through retarding the ignition. And depending on what stock tune you have partially closing the computer controlled secondary butterflies in the throttle bodies. With just those restrictions removed the bike is much more responsive and lively in the first few gears. Some how the front end gets lighter too.

PCIII cannot remap the ignition and secondaries maps like tuneboy can. Here is the tuneboy site http://www.tuneboy.com.au/ Basically it allows you to hack into the ECU and remap pretty much anything the ECU controls.
 
#19 ·
My head is spinning

Could someone give me some advise...I've been reading all this stuff and understanding bits and pieces but I'd like help with the following:

I just purchased a 2008 R3 Classic, among other mods, I have TOR's with cat eliminator, Unifilter pods and Tuneboy with 20050_3 loaded.
I'm about to turn off the O2 sensor via Tuneboy (I'm doing this because of an explanation Pig9r gave and also because my bike is running noticeably different now - after 2 rides - than what it did straight after I uploaded the 20050_3 tune).

Now I'm reading about secondary removal - so my question is; should I remove them given my current state of tune.

I'm at sea level in Sydney Australia and i ride the bike like a sport bike - relatively (except when the missus is on-board) :D
 
#21 ·
Could someone give me some advise...I've been reading all this stuff and understanding bits and pieces but I'd like help with the following:

I just purchased a 2008 R3 Classic, among other mods, I have TOR's with cat eliminator, Unifilter pods and Tuneboy with 20050_3 loaded.
I'm about to turn off the O2 sensor via Tuneboy (I'm doing this because of an explanation Pig9r gave and also because my bike is running noticeably different now - after 2 rides - than what it did straight after I uploaded the 20050_3 tune).

Now I'm reading about secondary removal - so my question is; should I remove them given my current state of tune.

I'm at sea level in Sydney Australia and i ride the bike like a sport bike - relatively (except when the missus is on-board) :D
If you have 20050_3 installed and have the Tuneboy program installed on a computer, you will see that the secondary table is set at 100% in all gears and RPM. No need to remove the plates.

The L tables (which control the fuel at low throttle settings based on the O2 sensor and MAP) in 20050_3 are the same as in the stock tune for tor's/cat bypass - in closed loop with the O2 sensor working, it's typical to get popping on decel. Wayne suggested changing the L tables to add fuel to get rid of the backfiring. There are plenty of posted tunes with the modified L tables. With your setup, you should be getting some popping because the L tables are too lean. If you substitute the modified L tables into your tune with the O2 sensor on, the ECU will adapt and you'll start getting popping again. With the option to turn off the O2 sensor, the ECU won't adapt. But you still have to put in the modified L tables. When you reload the tune you need to go into Tuneboy and do the reset adapt.
 
#20 ·
Yes, by all means void your warranty. We've had a shortage lately of people complaining about their heavily modded bikes falling apart, then having trouble getting them put back together for free. :D

But seriously, if you'll note what Pig9r wrote most recently in this zombie thread (viz, 11 months ago), the secondaries are under computer control and Tuneboy gives you thorough control over that. So, why bother removing them unless you just like ripping things up?
 
#22 ·
Re the warranty...i don't know how your dealerships work in the US but i buy a new bike every other year and always change everything and i've never had a bike fall apart and i've never had a dealer knock me back on fixing anything - actually i've never taken a bike back for anything to be fixed - strange that!! ;)

But thanks for the input
 
#23 ·
carmina.. true tb keeps them open but if you watch they are slow to respond.. any obstruction , including the secondaries open 100 % will effect performance to some degree. i have janked them on mine and some 5 other bikes i have put my exhaust on.. just becareful removing the screws.. dont strip out the head.. uses a very small philips head #1.. and put duct tape around the plates to make sure you dont drop a screw down the tb's. feel free to ask any questions.. some of us dont have our panties in a bunch.
 
#24 ·
thanks travelguy...great to have other input.

I'm sitting here working through the 20050_3 tune adding 10% and 15% to the areas recommended by dougl & Pig9r...gees how tedious is it :(

Lets hope it makes a difference. I'll pull the secondaries the next time I clean the filters.

Love this bike ;)
 
#25 ·
I do have another question :rolleyes:

I just added 10% and 15% to the areas suggested by those in the know. Out to the shed to upload the modified tune and before doing this I disconnected the O2 cable from the wiring loom. Then connected the laptop and went to to turn off the O2 switch in Tuneboy before downloading the modified tune.

Thing is, no matter how many times i unchecked the O2 sensor in Tuneboy, every time I rechecked it was back on again!!

Also I didn't have the option to do an Adaptive reload (it always remains greyed out).

Can anyone assist with an explanation.

thanks
 
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