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The Rocket Science Forum 2300cc's of Propulsion

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Old 11-26-2012, 02:09 AM   #31 (permalink)
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The gipro fools the ecu into thinking it is always in the same gear, eg 5th, so that the ecu will use the tuning parameters for that gear all the time for all gears. This is helpful for example if the timing is more advanced in 5th than lower gears and you want it more advanced in all gears. Let's say you choose a gear with the gipro where the tune is telling the secondaries to close to 50% and regulate the fuel to that setting for all gears. However by removing the secondaries you may have caused a mismatch between what the engine needs with 100% open and what the ecu is calling for for 50%.


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Old 11-26-2012, 02:16 AM   #32 (permalink)
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More - the point of the gipro is to not have to remove the secondaries. If you want the secondaries open 100% in all gears at all loads, you need to make sure you have a tune where the secondaries are open 100% in a gear you can specify with the gipro and at all loads in that gear.


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Old 11-26-2012, 04:17 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougl View Post
The gipro fools the ecu into thinking it is always in the same gear, eg 5th, so that the ecu will use the tuning parameters for that gear all the time for all gears. This is helpful for example if the timing is more advanced in 5th than lower gears and you want it more advanced in all gears. Let's say you choose a gear with the gipro where the tune is telling the secondaries to close to 50% and regulate the fuel to that setting for all gears. However by removing the secondaries you may have caused a mismatch between what the engine needs with 100% open and what the ecu is calling for for 50%.


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Thanks. I was told that nothing needed to be done once the secondaries were removed. I have seen other threads which reference removing the secondaries and adding a GIPRO and no other changes. Interestingly without the GIPRO turned off the lack of secondaries causes no problems. I can only assume that something is not compatible as it is now. I might try a 12 minute tune and go from there.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:19 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dougl View Post
More - the point of the gipro is to not have to remove the secondaries. If you want the secondaries open 100% in all gears at all loads, you need to make sure you have a tune where the secondaries are open 100% in a gear you can specify with the gipro and at all loads in that gear.


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Thanks. I was told that nothing needed to be done once the secondaries were removed. I have seen other threads which reference removing the secondaries and adding a GIPRO and no other changes. Interestingly without the GIPRO turned off the lack of secondaries causes no problems. I can only assume that something is not compatible as it is now. I might try a 12 minute tune and go from there...I may need to try a specific tune as you suggest.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:35 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shunternz View Post
Thanks. I was told that nothing needed to be done once the secondaries were removed. I have seen other threads which reference removing the secondaries and adding a GIPRO and no other changes. Interestingly without the GIPRO turned off the lack of secondaries causes no problems. I can only assume that something is not compatible as it is now. I might try a 12 minute tune and go from there...I may need to try a specific tune as you suggest.
Don't count on the 12-minute tune doing anything. Even if you don't plan to use TuneECU, it would help to download that program so you can see what the tune in your bike does with the secondaries. The 20367 tune is for the R3T with stock mufflers and the 20368 is for TORs. I did a screen capture of the secondaries table from the 20368 map. The values are percentages that the secondaries are open as a function of gear and rpm. You can see they are closed a lot in all gears at most RPMs except in 4th and 5th below 2250 rpm. This is the only region where your missing secondaries is matching how the secondaries table is controlling the ECU. I'm not familiar with the GIPRO settings but if you're using one that matches 5th gear, you have the secondaries closed down to 42% above 3000 rpm. But with them actually removed, you're getting a lot more air in than the ECU thinks its getting. Can you see how this might wreak havoc with how the bike runs?
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:09 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Don't count on the 12-minute tune doing anything. Even if you don't plan to use TuneECU, it would help to download that program so you can see what the tune in your bike does with the secondaries. The 20367 tune is for the R3T with stock mufflers and the 20368 is for TORs. I did a screen capture of the secondaries table from the 20368 map. The values are percentages that the secondaries are open as a function of gear and rpm. You can see they are closed a lot in all gears at most RPMs except in 4th and 5th below 2250 rpm. This is the only region where your missing secondaries is matching how the secondaries table is controlling the ECU. I'm not familiar with the GIPRO settings but if you're using one that matches 5th gear, you have the secondaries closed down to 42% above 3000 rpm. But with them actually removed, you're getting a lot more air in than the ECU thinks its getting. Can you see how this might wreak havoc with how the bike runs?
Thanks. I'll get Tune ECU. Appreciate the feedback.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:18 PM   #37 (permalink)
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So, if I am reading this right.

Getting the GiPro negates the need to remove the secondaries. As my R3T (2013) is new, a lot of items are only listed up to 2012 at this point. My plan is underseat K&N, TORS and GiPro. Is that a reasonable combination to get this things HP back to a reasonable range?

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Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #38 (permalink)
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So, if I am reading this right.

Getting the GiPro negates the need to remove the secondaries. As my R3T (2013) is new, a lot of items are only listed up to 2012 at this point. My plan is underseat K&N, TORS and GiPro. Is that a reasonable combination to get this things HP back to a reasonable range?

bob
On other forums I have been reading they say remove secondaries + GiPro, no tune. I have underseat K&N, GiPro secondaries removed...but have an issue which could well be to do with the secondaries being removed.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob R View Post
So, if I am reading this right.

Getting the GiPro negates the need to remove the secondaries. As my R3T (2013) is new, a lot of items are only listed up to 2012 at this point. My plan is underseat K&N, TORS and GiPro. Is that a reasonable combination to get this things HP back to a reasonable range?

bob
There's no reason to physically remove the secondaries if you can get them to open 100% using either hardware, like the Gi-Pro, or software, like TuneECU or Tuneboy.

The Gi-Pro TRE function (timing retard eliminator) fools the ECU into thinking the bike is always in the same gear so that it will use the tuning settings for that gear in the other gears. This is usually used to apply the timing parameters (advance) of a higher gear to the lower gears.

In the case of the Rocket, the tunes close the secondary throttle plates as a function of gear and RPM. So, the Gi-Pro could be used to open the secondaries 100% in the lower gears but only if the tune in the ECU has the secondaries OPEN 100% AT ALL RPMs in the higher gear. In fact, there are some Rocket tunes which have the secondaries open 100% at all RPMs in 4th and 5th gear. For example, the original R3 with stock exhaust.

But this is not the case for the R3T (or the new Roadster), as I explained above. There is no gear for the stock R3T tunes where the secondaries are open 100% at all RPMs. So the Gi-Pro will only apply the same closed secondaries profile from the higher gear to the lower gears. Worse, if you take the secondaries out, you will effectively have them open 100%, letting more air in, but the ECU is fueling the injectors thinking the secondaries are closed. So if you rip out the secondaries, you have to change the secondaries table so that it specifies 100% in all gears at all RPMs.

Option 2 is to get TuneECU for free, buy the cable for $20, or Tuneboy for $500, load the R3T tune for TORs into your laptop, change the secondaries table so that 100 is in every cell, save the tune, and download it into the ECU. Presto, your secondaries are open and your power is unrestricted.

However, there is a potential problem with this solution. Since the stock tune closed the secondaries, it also had to limit the fuel or it would have been running rich. When you open them up in the tune with TuneECU, the ECU doesn't necessarily add back the fuel, so the bike may run lean. I had assumed that when the secondaries were reset from say 50% to 100%, the ECU would compensate and add fuel just by recalculating. Wayne-Tripp disagreed and I tend to believe him since he's an expert.

No matter how you deal with opening the secondaries, you need to make sure there is enough fuel to match the additional intake air. Do this by having the A/F checked on a dyno.

If it is too lean, you can add fuel by having the fuel remapped using TuneECU, Tuneboy, or a PCV.

I believe there is an option 3. The PCV allows for fuel trimming in each gear. I'm not sure if this applies to the R3T. If it does, you can rip the secondaries out and have the fuel re-trimmed for the extra air in each gear as a function of RPM. This will account for any differences in the secondaries table between gears.

If you thought this was going to be simple, it's not. A lot of people do things to these bikes but they're not necessarily good things. If you really want some good advice, find Power-Tripp on this forum, PM him, and ask.


Warning: TuneECU cannot be used to load maps into some of the new Triumph models. This will kill the ECU. The Rocket is not one of those models now but anything could happen in the future.

Last edited by dougl; 11-29-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:50 PM   #40 (permalink)
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make SURE if you order a TuneECU cable off e-bay,
to get the one that has blue ends
but a grey or silver cable in the middle.
NOT the solid blue on both ends and blue cable.
They're hit an miss, some work, some don't.
no way to tell till ya try it out.
The others, work. blue ends, grey cable,
that's the one ya want...
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