I was planning on calling around and seeing quotes on this service. I have four dealers in my region. One is very local. But they service tons of other makes. So I'm not sure how intimate they would be with The ST. I'd have to drive a few hours to any of the other locations.
When I started looking at how much others have paid, I saw ~$800 quite frequently. That's a lot of money to me. For a service. So I figured I'd try to do it myself. Realized I'd have to check and adjust the cam timing. Not something I'm vaguely familiar with.
My prior mechanical experience only goes so far as checking the valves and re-shimming on my Kawasaki KLX250SF. And that job took me all day. But I did it successfully.
I have a rear stand and basic tools. I'm also ordering a service manual soon. I also have a clean environment where I can work on the bike for several days.
Things I can do include:
Oil and Filter - Change
Air Filter - Change/Clean (K&N)
Things I'm less inclined to fool around with:
Valve Clearances - Check/Adjust
Camshaft Timing - Adjust (ehhh)
Spark Plugs - Replace
Throttle Bodies - Balance
Throttle Body Plate - Check/Clean
All Electrical Diagnostic and ECM messages / get that pesky wrench off my dash (dealer only)
Should I attempt any of the above with my prior, albeit brief, experience? Or should I take care of the obvious (oil and filter) and have the shop do the rest. It may just be easier to have them do the air filter as well due to them having the tank off...
I'm just trying to not spend $800. $400-500 sounds more reasonable.
I am currently in your shoes, a little further as I already dove into this. I got quoted 450 with parts which is very good but decided against it as I like tinkering and see how things work.
I am currently readjusting the camshaft timing. You need a few tools but I will be doing it without/making my own. I have a thread started which has useful information. Read through it and if you need any help I will do my best to assist
You really should make the calls, and make sure to call a reputable Indy shop too. The shop where I bought my shims said they charge about $500 for the valves, even if they need adjustment.
There's a lot of other stuff that's supposed to be done @12k that may be pushing quotes higher.
If you diy, make sure you have Torx bits / keys, and the right feeler gauges in your toolbox, in addition to your metric ratchet and wrench sets.
Although I have done the 12,000 mile and 24,000 mile services myself (using Haynes manual and TuneEcu) I would not recommend it for riders who do not have much experience doing this. IMO $800 is a reasonable price for a complete service because checking/adjusting valve clearances is a very time-consuming job. There is also a lot of stuff to remove and replace. New sparkplugs and air filter should be installed and the throttle body balance checked/adjusted (very important for a smooth vibration-free engine). Make sure the service dept has valve shims in 0.025 mm increments for the exhaust valves because standard 0.050 mm increment shims will have the exhaust valves either too tight or too loose. The first time I did the valves I had to wait 2 wks for the proper size 0.025 shims to come in. Plan on a couple of days doing the job yourself.
-Probably a dirty little secret that sport-bikes need this expensive valve service done on a routine basis, and one can only hope that the mechanic does a careful and methodical job and does not screw something up. I've noticed that the new Bonnevilles have SOHC engines and the top end is easy to access; adjusting the valves with screw adjusters is a heck of a lot easier than removing cams!
In order for cam timing to be done you are already in a position to do air filter and spark plugs... and measure the valve clearance. So, if you are doing the cam timing then do the rest. If you are not then have shop do all of it since nothing is really adding much effort.
So I've done a bit more research, looked at the manual for a bit. And I've arrived at the conclusion that I could do most everything by myself. The only thing I'm still a bit iffy on is the cam timing. Like I said, I've checked and adjusted valve clearances before, just not so many as on the Triple.
Balancing the throttle bodies seems rather straightforward, granted I have to purchase DealerTool. And once I have that, I can check codes, bleed abs brakes, and clear the service icon off the dash.
Changing spark plugs requires a long barreled socket and extension, correct? I've got a good socket set with metrics.
The cam timing requires like, four tools that I'd have to buy. Three from Triumph (reasonably priced), and a .6Nm torque limiter (elsewhere).
On a scale of 1-10, how difficult is re-timing the cams?
So I've done a bit more research, looked at the manual for a bit. And I've arrived at the conclusion that I could do most everything by myself. The only thing I'm still a bit iffy on is the cam timing. Like I said, I've checked and adjusted valve clearances before, just not so many as on the Triple.
Balancing the throttle bodies seems rather straightforward, granted I have to purchase DealerTool. And once I have that, I can check codes, bleed abs brakes, and clear the service icon off the dash.
Changing spark plugs requires a long barreled socket and extension, correct? I've got a good socket set with metrics.
The cam timing requires like, four tools that I'd have to buy. Three from Triumph (reasonably priced), and a .6Nm torque limiter (elsewhere).
On a scale of 1-10, how difficult is re-timing the cams?
Checking/adjusting timing: if you are lucky and timing chain has not stretched enough, you will not need to adjust it at all, just to check it which is easy: make sure marks align as described in the manual and various threads here. If they align you are done. If you have to adjust it, then you need those tools; before doing it i thought it was 10 on your scale. After doing it, I'd say it is pretty straightforward.
I have the dealertool and I am not able to make it connect with the abs module, it returns an error saying "no abs" which is BS. It pisses me off but I really don't know how to approach trying to fix it.
I do use the dealertool regularly for codes and resetting things up and I think is a great tool to have.
For spark plugs I have a dedicated spark plug tool that I bought from ebay, I like it because it has a flexible joint which makes getting into cramped up corners easier.
I emailed the Triumph/Ducati dealer in New Orleans and here's what I received as a response:
Andrew, thanks for the inquiry. The 12,000mi service is quite extensive as I'm sure you know and costs apprx. $800 if the valves do not need to be reshimmed. In the event that they do, we remove the camshafts and replace whatever shims necessary to get the valve clearances back within specification for an additional $250. These prices include all parts other than the shims needed to adjust the clearances.
The necessary parts for the 12k mile service that are included are 4qts of Shell Ultra Advance Oil, Triumph oil filter, Triumph replacement crush washer, Triumph hybrid oat coolant, Motul DOT 5.1 brake fluid, Triumph ignition cover gasket, Triumph Camshaft cover gasket and screw gaskets, Triumph timing chain cover gasket and Triumph spark plugs. There aren't parts necessary to balance throttle bodies, but we perform this during the service as well.
If you're planning on replacing the engine oil and filter yourself, you can expect to deduct about $75 from the prices I've quoted you.
Not sure about using the DOT 5.1, as the brakes don't yet need bleeding (next year), and I've heard not to use DOT 5. Some say 5.1 is OK, but I'm skeptical. Why not stick with what we know works...
For doing the valve service you will definitely need a shop or Haynes manual so you have the proper torque values and torquing pattern for the cams holder. An antenna-type magnet is needed to lift out the valve bucket with shim and also to lift out the spark plugs from the tunnels. Use 5/16 clear tubing to hold the new plugs and screw them in; then torque to 12 Nm. NOTE; you need two wide plastic zip-ties through EACH cam around the cam chain to hold the chain down while torquing down the cams holder (unless the cams are different from earlier models). On my 2010 model the chain would lift off the cams and the whole cams holder torquing procedure would have to be done again so tight zip ties were essential. The cams holder must be torqued down incrementally in the correct order to prevent breaking the holder. If the holder is cracked then the whole cylinder head and holder must be replaced as a unit. You can wedge a suitably sized socket between the cam chain guide and engine case to keep the cam chain tight until the tensioner is installed. STRONG HINT; place a garden-hose rubber washer over the valve stem before trying to install a new shim, just in case a shim slips out of your fingers and goes down into the valve spring recess.
For doing the valve service you will definitely need a shop or Haynes manual so you have the proper torque values and torquing pattern for the cams holder. An antenna-type magnet is needed to lift out the valve bucket with shim and also to lift out the spark plugs from the tunnels. Use 5/16 clear tubing to hold the new plugs and screw them in; then torque to 12 Nm. NOTE; you need two wide plastic zip-ties through EACH cam around the cam chain to hold the chain down while torquing down the cams holder (unless the cams are different from earlier models). On my 2010 model the chain would lift off the cams and the whole cams holder torquing procedure would have to be done again so tight zip ties were essential. The cams holder must be torqued down incrementally in the correct order to prevent breaking the holder. If the holder is cracked then the whole cylinder head and holder must be replaced as a unit. You can wedge a suitably sized socket between the cam chain guide and engine case to keep the cam chain tight until the tensioner is installed. STRONG HINT; place a garden-hose rubber washer over the valve stem before trying to install a new shim, just in case a shim slips out of your fingers and goes down into the valve spring recess.
Re: zip ties, I used an alternative method which is I torqued everything down as per manual without zip ties and watched how things evolved; it turned out the exhaust camhaft stayed nicely in place as the chain was taut around it, but the intake ended up one tooth counterclockwise from start (chain not being taut yet around it because manual tensioner not in, as per manual, allowed the chain to lift off the sprocket as you mentioned); I just did it again with intake camshaft one tooth further clockwise removed from correct timing and now I ended up where I wanted, once evrything was torqued down, including chain tensioner, timing was correct.
Re: rubber washer, I used same antenna magnet you mentioned earlier to place the new ones, beside remove old ones; works like a charm: you place the new shim, stuck to the magnet, in its recess then slide the magnet away and voila, you;re done, risk of shim falling is amost nil as the magnet keeps it secure, and once it's in its recess, it stays put as well. Drop the bucket on top of it and boom- done.
FYI...when doing plugs, just put a layer of blue painters tape inside your socket...will pull plug out no prob and will also hold it when installing them. Been doing this for years.
If you've never done a valve adjustment...do not attempt on your own. Get someone that is experienced in doing them on the street triple to help walk you through it. Will save you a lot of potential pain.
If you are mechanically inclined you will pick it up quickly and learn a few tips along the way...if you are not mechanically inclined, just keep the friend refreshed with beverages and friendly banter and stay out of the way...lol
Emailed to confirm about Cam Timing adjustment. Got this as a response:
"We will certainly check the camshaft timing during these services, but there is no 'adjustment.' They're either timed correctly or incorrectly. The street triple doesn't come with adjustable cam gears from the factory; there's timing marks that must be lined up correctly during assembly and that's it."
Scratching my head, here. It's definitely in the 2013+ manual to check and adjust if necessary, only once, at the 12000 mile mark.
You might want to give whoever you emailed at your dealership a pass on the cam timing adjustment.
Triumph makes a whole bunch of models and engine configurations. And as far as I know, only the 2013+ 675cc. bikes require this adjustment, and only at the 12K service. Instead of an email, why not use the phone and talk directly to the service manager?
I agree with Bruce here. They servei so many bikes it is easy to confuse them. 2012 and before sreet triples do have fixed sprockets. I am still confused how you adjust timing on those guys, but from what your dude is saying you don't- I guess it's time for new chain or something.
As with why at 12k ONLY, I am guess the engineers figured that most chain stretch happens in the first 12k miles (it has to have to do with metal plastic propoerties, I am sure it is well documented)- if at that point your chain is still within specs and timing is fine, you are out of the danger zone as from then on chain stretch will be minimal. It is only a wild speculation but it would make sense if true.
Stretch in the chain will cause timing to be slightly off so. To correct this the adjustment is made per service manual. I just went through all this crap, initially thought my timing is off so I made the adjustment but the marking on the camshaft is still slightly off when all said and done.
On my car, I do those sorts of things myself. However, the car is an old diesel and I'm an old Navy diesel mechanic so I already know what I'm doing. Bikes, I could learn to do, but I work two jobs and I'd rather just drop it off and pick it up a bit later.
I had no problem with the screw type valve adjustments on my 81 Honda Civic GL1500, but when I tried to do the same on my 79 CB750F with shim type adjusters, it ended up having to be transported to the dealer on a pick-up to get un-completely-screwed-up.
Regarding your issue with dealortool connecting to the abs module,have you ever disabled the abs?
Reason I asked is the ability to disable the abs needs to be activated by the dealer during set up,and it's not unheard of for dealers to not do this.
I'm just curious if this was not done,could this be part of your problem. If it was,well then nevermind.
Thant might be my problem- thanks! I did not know about this.
So let me make sure I understand what you said: if the dealer does not activate the feature of connecting to ABS, I will not be able to do it. I will only be able to connect dealertool to ABS module AFTER dealer activates that feature. Did I get it right?
No,the ability to disable abs in the setup menu(dash menu)of your bike is activated by your dealer during setup.
If you scroll through the menu options you should find abs,if not then the dealer did not unlock the ability to disable abs.
I was just trying to trouble shoot as to a reason your dealertool may not be recognizing the abs module.
My theory is if the dash does not show abs in the options,maybe that's the reason dealertool can not connect to the module.
I hope I made myself clear,if not pm me.
?
Got it now. Yes ABS is on the menu as I flip through it. But as far as I know if you disable ABS, it stays disabled only until you turn the bike off. Once you turn it back on ABS should be on. Based on that I am not sure if that is my issue.
The confusion, on my behalf, is coming from the discrepancy between what I've read to do at the 12,000 service in the manual (2013+) and what the person I'm corresponding with at the N.O. dealership has told me.
It's in the manual, in fact, in bold type, "Camshaft Timing - Adjust - Only first 12000 mile service"
So, why is it there if they don't do it.
And, if the hardest thing there is to do is measure/adjust valve clearances, then hell, I've already done that before. The procedure itself is not difficult. It's removing everything to get to the job that's the real chore. And once you're down that deep, which is really only cracking the surface of your bike, everything else is there for you to do. Spark plugs, throttle bodies, air filter. DealerTool will allow you to bleed the brakes and balance the throttle bodies (actually a very brief process).
I have more time on my hands than I do money, partly stemming from my life's mystery as to how to make money by spending my time doing something I enjoy, but that's another story. So spending time doing this maintenance is most practical for me.
I'll email the guy back. We'll see what he says. For now, I'll guess that at 12000 miles, my cam timing isn't jacked up enough to have to fix it.
The confusion, on my behalf, is coming from the discrepancy between what I've read to do at the 12,000 service in the manual (2013+) and what the person I'm corresponding with at the N.O. dealership has told me.
It's in the manual, in fact, in bold type, "Camshaft Timing - Adjust - Only first 12000 mile service"
So, why is it there if they don't do it.
I'll email the guy back. We'll see what he says. For now, I'll guess that at 12000 miles, my cam timing isn't jacked up enough to have to fix it.
You might want to give whoever you emailed at your dealership a pass on the cam timing adjustment.
Triumph makes a whole bunch of models and engine configurations. And as far as I know, only the 2013+ 675cc. bikes require this adjustment, and only at the 12K service. Instead of an email, why not use the phone and talk directly to the service manager?
To have a 12K service that cost nearly 10% of the bike new seems a bit ridiculous. With new technology and better metals it would sure seem like they could get that valve adjustment period extended to something more reasonable like Yamaha has. Their FJR has its valve inspection at 20K miles while the new FJ-09 has it at 26K. Ducati went through this with their desmo system some years back. At that time the scheduled valve adj. was at something like 6K and now its been extended to 18K based on sales resistance in the market. Same thing with oil consumption. My bike uses oil albeit not much but I still have to add oil every 800-1000 miles. I haven't had another bike that used ANY oil at all in probably 15 years. I love this motor but...
Last weekend, I dug into the bike and started the 12k service.
I couldn't remove the throttle bodies. I pulled and pulled and pulled, but they wouldn't come off. So I left them on and took off the throttle cable bit. There was still room. I stopped after measuring the valve clearances. Here's what I found:
Ex Range: .325-.375
In Range: .100-.200
Am I correct to assume the Intake clearances gets smaller and the Exhaust clearances get larger over time?
I'm fairly confident in my measurements. The Exhaust side was particularly hard for me to get to. Some feeler gauges went in with a bit of a push. They were also a bit hard to get back out. I have a set of straight feeler gauges. I bent the ones I had to use on the exhaust side, namely the .330, .356, and .381, and they were still rather difficult. This leads me to ask you all that have done this: What set did you use to get confident readings on the exhaust side? Technically, only two of the gauges I have are within the acceptable clearance range. Is there a more accurate set of feeler gauges I can purchase to get a better reading? The Intake side is rather straightforward, considering they are more accessible and have a wider clearance range. Only one of them was badly out of spec. Should I make anything of this particular clearance being that far outta whack?
Your help is greatly appreciated. I still have to dive in further and take the cams off. I'll have more questions later.
I think I used the same set as you. I wasn't too keen on getting exact measurements rather just to make sure it wasn't out of range.
The clearances can increase or decrease depending of if the valve is seating more or if the valve is wearing down. I don't have enough experience to say which happens more on what side on our bikes though.
I'm sure someone else with more expertise will come in,but if you do a little research you'll find that the clearances get tighter. It's not the valve or shim that is wearing,it the valve seats. This let's the valve rise slightly higher,causing the clearance to tighten. Intake or exhaust does not make a difference. Hope that helped.
Good luck.
For one exhaust clearance, I have a measured range of .381-.406mm. The .381mm being the largest size to fit, the .406mm being the next gauge that wouldn't fit. The existing shim for this valve is 2.48mm. Two options for putting it back in spec: Replace with a 2.50mm shim, putting the new range at .361-.386mm, the high end of the range. Or I can replace with a 2.525mm shim, putting the range at .336-.361mm. Which should I do? As always, input is well appreciated.
Looks like 3 valves are out of spec not one based on your earlier post? I would go with the tighter personally. My thoughts are that seating happens early in engine life and then lobe/cam/valve wear later. Also more open.... more air.
Three Exhaust clearances were out of spec, yes. I was able to fix one with an existing shim from under another valve that must be adjusted. I've got the other one's shim figured out. It's just that fixing this one leaves me at the top of the clearance, or the bottom of the clearance. Not really in between where I'd prefer it.
OK... so you swapped others. I would try to get them all balanced in that case. What are your clearances on the other valves? Try to match your others while being in spec.
I took the 2.48mm shim I took out of the far right exhaust and I put it where I needed a 2.48mm, which is the far left exhaust.
Ideally, yes, I'd have them all at .350mm, but that's impossible with this particular exhaust valve. There exists no 2.51mm shim to put it bang in the middle. There is only the option of a 2.50mm shim resulting in upper clearance range, or a 2.525mm shim resulting in lower clearance range. I'll go with the upper. 2.50mm
I certainly did. I pulled and pulled but the damn thing wouldn't budge. I've read around and have found I'm certainly not the first one to leave the bodies attached while doing this job. Something I noticed, that when tightening the 3mm band clamps back up, it seemed like they could just keep on tightening. Like there was no point where they were clearly starting to feel tighter. There was no torque spec for these listed in the manual, so I simply felt it out.
Thanks for the input, folks. I said fk it and ordered a full Pro X shim kit in "off sizes," 2.525, 2.575, etc. So if the ones I ordered (four 2.525mm's, coincidentally) still don't put them back in range, I'll have options on hand. I already have a standard Hot Cams shim kit in .05 increments from doing my 250 a while back. Mr. Shim, over here.
I've always heard that the danger of an exhaust valve going out of adjustment is the clearance getting too small and the valve holding open and burning. If it gets too large it just makes noise and perhaps a little less power.
Instead of ordering a whole kit,why not go to a dealer/bike shop to get shims?
My dealer told me to come down with the shims and measurements and that they'd would most likely have what I needed.
They are a big multi brand dealership known for excellent service,so I can't imagine they weren't on the up and up.
Where I live, there is a big multi brand dealership, also. They have everything but Honda, who has an ATV dealership right across the road.
This place is called Hattiesburg Cycles. And it's full of morons. And overpriced everything. Called the parts guy, he sent me to service. Asked the service guy, he wanted to send me back to parts. When I explained that I'd already spoken with parts, he basically told me that shims were a serviceman thing and they are the only ones who would have those. He wasn't helpful in the least. This is also the place that wanted full msrp ($320) on a Pilot Road 4 rear tire, then another $30 to mount and balance, off the bike. It would have been $75 with the tire ON the bike. And it would have been ~$115 to mount and balance had I brought them the rear tire/rim off the bike and supplied my own new tire (not bought the new tire from them). I ordered the tire from Rocky Mountain ATV for a $180, it arrived in two days, free shipping, and I found a shop that mounted and balanced for less than $30. $210 vs $350 (the least it could have been).
Anyway, back to the shims.
So I called the Honda place. Told the guy what size I needed, and he at least had the common courtesy and damn sense to go look in their inventory to see if they had it. They didn't, but I appreciated his efforts far more than the knuckledraggers at Hattiesburg Cycles.
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