Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

Help w/ Timing Mark

30K views 69 replies 10 participants last post by  taximan62 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

Can someone give me feed back on the whether the timing marks on the camshaft is below is sufficient. I can't get them to directly point at each other. The bike starts, idle and rides great. However, it is marking a more pronounced ticking noise than it did before. Maybe I am just being I welt paranoid as it is my first time setting timing on any engine, let alone this awesome motorcycle.

Ticking noise
https://vimeo.com/172139880

Camshaft timing mark


Crank timing mark
 
See less See more
2
#3 ·
What kind of valve clearance numbers did you have? 0.1 to 0.2 for intake and 0.325 to 0.375mm for exhaust is the normal range.

I recently did the 12,000 mile service. I redid my cam timing and my bike got smoother/quieter. My valve clearance was on the tight end of the range FYI. I ask because I think most of the noise comes from gap and not from bad timing(a little timing off shouldn't cause valve contact). Some things I noticed or can note for you are the following:

There is a hole in the casing above the crankshaft that lines up with a notch on the crankshaft itself... Much more accurate than the slot method you are looking at. You can insert a dowel/pin and it will lock the crankshaft in its place exactly where it needs to be.

The opposite end of the camshafts have slots... you can use the slots to get the cams timed perfectly.

You need to put tension on the cam timing chain while tightening the cams in place... otherwise your timing can be off.

Did you reset your hydraulic tensioner correctly? You have to turn crank counter clockwise to release it... otherwise only turn your crankshaft clockwise during the whole process of checking timing. Triumph has a cam timing tool kit FYI for my 2014 bike... should be same as for 2013. I made my own from tools but since you are not sure about your work maybe the kit is a good idea for you?
 
#4 ·
Some pics to show what I am talking about:

Hole in crankcase that lines up to lock at TDC



Slot on opposite end of camshaft that can be used to line up and lock camshaft at correct place



Timing before doing adjustment



Timing after adjustment... note slightly advanced which may retard minimally due to further stretch but not the same amount as initial 12,000 miles

 
#6 · (Edited)
After the adjustment, i got the inlets to sit around .152 while the exhaust are at .355mm. I am pretty confident that I am using the right procedure to set the timing. However, there is no way for me to get the camshaft to perfectly point to each other awhile the first cylinder is TDC. I am starting to think the chain is stretched and therefore throwing the camshaft alignment off. This is hard to believe as the motorcycle only has 12080 miles on it. However, I do notice some slack chain between the exhaust camshaft sprocket the crank sprocket. Looks like I will be disassembling it again to measure the chain per service manual.

Getting pretty fast and good at ripping out the cams haha
 
#7 ·
Even if the chain is stretched the cam timing can be done as long as the chain has not stretched beyond what the hydraulic tensioner can do.... at least on my version of cam(do you have a slot on the cam drive gear?) you can adjust cam to cam gear infinitely.

So you had to do the shims?
 
#12 ·
All this time I thought you did the cam timing adjustment! I did it as part of the 12,000 mile service along with checking valve clearance. My cam timing was slightly off but my valve clearance was in spec.

You need to do cam timing adjustment... get a hold of the service manual and get crackin!
 
#15 ·
This is a note from page 3.11 of the Street Triple/ Street Triple R from VIN 560477 shop manual from Triumph.

"Note:

The alignment marks do not need to be perfectly in line to each other, they only need to be pointing to each other.
"

The reason for this is that if you find your cams are not properly timed, or if you install new cams, those sprockets need to be loosened, moved, and retightened with new bolts. If your cam timing is off and you adjust it properly, and according to the manual, you will need four special tools. Two of those tools (T3880607 and T3880609) run about $250 for the two of them. The other two tools are more reasonably priced. If your timing is off and you properly adjust it, the timing marks you are looking at will still not perfectly align because, as you can see from your photo, the cam chain is what determines how those marks align to each other; not the timing of the cams themselves. Note that if you moved either of those cam sprockets one tooth worth -- and I'm not sure the slots for the bolts would allow that, the misalignment would be even more pronounced. Those marks are simply there to facilitate reinstalling the cams after re-shimming the valves.

According to the same manual, the cam timing should be checked once, at 12,000 miles, and then never again. Page 2.3.

The proper way to do that check is delineated in the manual, but if you are having trouble understanding the difference between cam timing and the position of those sprockets, setting cam timing correctly might be beyond your ability. I studied that section for a while before the whole procedure fell into place in my head.
 
#17 ·
This is a note from page 3.11 of the Street Triple/ Street Triple R from VIN 560477 shop manual from Triumph.

"Note:

The alignment marks do not need to be perfectly in line to each other, they only need to be pointing to each other.
"

The reason for this is that if you find your cams are not properly timed, or if you install new cams, those sprockets need to be loosened, moved, and retightened with new bolts. If your cam timing is off and you adjust it properly, and according to the manual, you will need four special tools. Two of those tools (T3880607 and T3880609) run about $250 for the two of them. The other two tools are more reasonably priced. If your timing is off and you properly adjust it, the timing marks you are looking at will still not perfectly align because, as you can see from your photo, the cam chain is what determines how those marks align to each other; not the timing of the cams themselves. Note that if you moved either of those cam sprockets one tooth worth -- and I'm not sure the slots for the bolts would allow that, the misalignment would be even more pronounced. Those marks are simply there to facilitate reinstalling the cams after re-shimming the valves.

According to the same manual, the cam timing should be checked once, at 12,000 miles, and then never again. Page 2.3.

The proper way to do that check is delineated in the manual, but if you are having trouble understanding the difference between cam timing and the position of those sprockets, setting cam timing correctly might be beyond your ability. I studied that section for a while before the whole procedure fell into place in my head.
This is an excellent reply. However the area I highlighted isn't quite correct. The 13+ models have adjustable sprockets. So using the cam holder tool will align the cams regardless of the amount of chain stretch (within the adjustment range of the sprockets). The cam tool holds them cams in alignment while the sprockets are loose so the chain can be relaxed and back into proper position.

On the older models you are correct you would have to move the chain tooth to tooth on the sprockets and if the chain had stretched to the point that moving it by a tooth would correct it you would have already had bigger problems.

For older models with higher models it's not unusual to see a half tooth of stretch before it's time to replace the chain. The amount of stretch shown in his photos is not enough to worry about unless you have the tools and just like fiddling with this sort of thing (like I do).

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about having a service manual. If you buy a bike you should buy a manual at the same time. The cost can be financed with the bike if it's a burden. Also even if you have a manual you should take some time to be introspective. Can you fully understand what the manual is describing? If not let a professional do it. We get factory training specifically so we can understand what the manuals are describing.
 
#16 ·
If you are adjusting the cam timing on a $8,000 (current value) Street Triple R without a $75.00 manual and solely relying on the well-meaning information offered on the internet..... For some reason I can't understand your logic of getting into this service in the first place.
 
#19 ·
You need 4 tools for timing adjustment: the holder you are talking about, a locking pin, a manual chain tensioner you temporarily place in lieu of the hydraulic one, and a 0.6 Nm torque limiter. The first 3 are pretty inexpensive and I found them to be worth whatever "grand" total was for all three. The only expensive one is the triumph torque limiter (about $200 which is ridiculous) but you can by decent 0.6 Nm limiters for a fraction of that price online and they will work just fine.
 
#20 ·
I got the manual for my bike now (had an older version before). After reading the section on cam timing adjustment I can't really see how you can screw it up(if you have some experience and understanding of the process).

Lock the crank using the opening for the pin, lock the cams using the slots, remove all chain slack and you are adjusted.

A timing belt is much more sensitive to the amount of force applied in the slack part of things but a chain barely stretches and as long as you don't crack anything you are good.

OP.. let us know how it goes.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Quick question:

In the manual, while adjusting the cam timing, it says to "Remove and discard the two accessible uppermost camshaft sprocket fixings, and replace with new fixings." And later, same with the "remaining sprocket fixings."

Did you do this during the procedure? And did you replace anything else where it says to discard original part and replace during the process? Or can you get away just fine by not doing so?

Edit: and throughout the process of checking valve clearances and anything else during the 12000 mile work, is there anything really important that you must discard and replace?
 
#25 ·
I will give you my personal take but depending on how you like to do things your mileage may vary.

Yes I did all that and I like to believe it was well worth it although impossible to know without reusing old stuff.

The camshft sprocket fixings are in my view paramount to change to new ones for a simple reason: they are patch locked fixings: they come from factory with a patch of coloured plastic on the threads (hence PATCH locked); as you tighten them, the plastic deforms and gets squeezed in between threads locking them. Old fixings have the plastic already deformed so the locking is not as effective. The reason you want those fixings locked is that because of all the high speeds of rotation and all the buzz/vibration they can come undone which you most definitely do not want on a camshaft sprocket.
And even if we suppose for a moment you can wing it with old screws: new ones are just a few bucks (I think I paid two buck per tops)- why in the world would you NOT want peace of mind knowing you did it by the book?

Other things I replaced with new as per the manual: ALL gaskets they recommend NOT reusing, and I mean ALL, I only cite here from memory so I might miss some: hydraulic tensioner o-ring, right side crankshaft gasket, the copper washer on one of the right side crankshaft cover screws, the camshaft cover gasket, every of those six gaskets for the main camshaft cover bolts, the o-rings for the induction coil towers and for the camshaft dowels. I probably miss some, but if it was in the service manual as "do not reuse" I bought new. OCD or just plain careful-you take your pick on interpretation, but my thinking was the same: all those gaskets seal the engine against oil leaks. Why "save" a few buck (the grand total for all that petty **** did not go over $100, not by a long shot, and I saved many hundreds by doing the work on my own) just to regret it later when my engine would seep oil everywhere? Not worth it.

But it is your bike, so please take this with a grain of salt and make your own decision.
 
#26 ·
I used the Triumph service kit... my kit included oil filter, air filter, spark plugs, cam cover gasket, cam cover bolt rubber washer, crank cover gasket, oil plug washer and cam chain tensioner gasket... it did not include the patch bolt. So I reused the old ones but gave it an little extra torque. I would have used new ones if it was in the kit. Why was it not in the kit? Why were the copper washers not in the kit? I don't know but they should be in the kit if the service calls for it. I would have gone to dealer but dealer closed down a month after my purchase of the bike.
 
#27 ·
I did not even know there was such I kit lol but now I know, for next time I do a major service on it- it might save a buck or two if bought as a kit as opposed to individually. I just simply made a list with everything manual recommended to replace for new and called a couple of dealers to see what they have on the shelf from the list as I wanted to get going asap. All other items on the list I had them special order for me.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Here is a bit of an update. I put everything together as intended in the manual. After torque down the sprocket bolts to 22nm. I rotated the assemble a few turns and checked the timing. It was spot on. So in goes the wedge and then tensioner. Release the tension per manual and rotate till I got to tdc and cam shaft marking is very similar to the photo I got when I first started this maintenance. At tdc I am not able to insert the camshaft alignment plate as well.

It seems like the chain has uneven stretch as certain position will cause a tight and loose tension on the chain at the exhaust sprocket to crank gear. This can also be seen at the tensioner side as well. Causing the plunger to retract and compress.

Could this be due to the fact that there is no pressure from the oil yet and the spring itself won't fully take up all the slack?
 
#29 · (Edited)
There is a reason why triumph wants you to use the manual tensioner tool for timing I suspect, and my bet is that 0.6Nm is very close to what oil pressure exerts on the chain in a running bike with hydraulic tensioner.

The camshaft alignment plate is a bitch to insert at TDC, the tolerances on that thing are incredible, its is like a super tight fit and you have to be aligned with an error of +-0.0000001 mm lol, but if you persist you will get it in. It took me a few tries and about half hour or so but was able to use it.

Not sure about uneven stretch in the chain, but to my non-engineer mind seems like a distant possibility. I can think of other things that will alter the marks on your sprocket as you rotate the crankshaft- when I adjusted my timing, as I was torqueing the camshaft ladder bolts (those 16 guys that require a specific sequence) and while tightening the manual chain tensioner to the recommended torque, the input shaft was moving because of the way pressures were exerted, which led each time to advancing one tooth by the time chain was tensioned (I had to start one tooth off so I can finish with normal timing).
 
#34 ·
My bike makes the same ticking that yours does.

People will deny the ticking exists, or mention the possibility of an exhaust leak or cam chain rattle.

These bikes simply tick. And people who deny it, their ears must not work well. I've read stories of people chasing this tick long and hard and never coming up with a "solution."

Every ST I've ever heard makes the same ticking sound. It speeds up with throttle on, and is more pronounced when at idle. And nobody seems to have a clue as to what makes it do it. I have a hard time thinking that Triumph produced a ton of ST's with exhaust leaks. And cam chain rattle is more of a 'clack' sound that's abundantly clear at certain rpm's.

As a consolation, I've heard that if you think the ST is noisy, that Ducati's are notoriously noisy engines.

On another note.

Keada714, is it safe to say that your camshaft timing didn't need adjusting after all?
 
#35 ·
My bike makes the same ticking that yours does.



People will deny the ticking exists, or mention the possibility of an exhaust leak or cam chain rattle.



These bikes simply tick. And people who deny it, their ears must not work well. I've read stories of people chasing this tick long and hard and never coming up with a "solution."



Every ST I've ever heard makes the same ticking sound. It speeds up with throttle on, and is more pronounced when at idle. And nobody seems to have a clue as to what makes it do it. I have a hard time thinking that Triumph produced a ton of ST's with exhaust leaks. And cam chain rattle is more of a 'clack' sound that's abundantly clear at certain rpm's.



As a consolation, I've heard that if you think the ST is noisy, that Ducati's are notoriously noisy engines.



On another note.



Keada714, is it safe to say that your camshaft timing didn't need adjusting after all?


I would say the initial timing before the adjustment was slightly off at 12000 miles. However not enough to cause damage or performance lost
 
#36 ·
Triumphs do sound a little/lot "agricultural" as they get some miles on them. Your's might be starting a little early.

Some of the 1050 engines are loud with tics, clunks and various noises that don't belong. I am told that the 1050 noises come from the balancer shaft drive gears. Maybe this is also true of the 675??????
 
#37 ·
After hearing some theory on the ticking being due to injectors or other things I decided to narrow it down on my bike a while back. While cruising along in a high gear and being able to listen to the ticking I killed my engine.... ticking still happened. So, not due to exhaust leak, not due to injectors, not due to emissions valves(my cars evap valve ticks audibly with hood open). So it must be some mechanical tick... I still think due to valve closing with a tap.

Ducati sounds like engine is falling apart... it will make you pull over or look down for sure to check on something falling off!
 
#42 · (Edited)
I killed the engine but kept clutch engaged while bike was travelling... so it was turning but not firing. This was my way of seeing if ticking is part of electronics or was mechanical. So the ticking is mechanical not electronic. Also, not part of transmission side since with engine off and clutch pulled it doesn't exist.

I wonder if the tick is from the tappet hitting the cam? There isn't anything holding it in place right? So when the valve closes the valve seats itself but the tappet will continue until it hits the cam? Hence the idea that more ticking happens with large valve clearances.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top