Noob Question: Should the Engine Stop Switch Ever Be Switched Off? - Page 4 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

Street Triple Forum Owners and Enthusiasts of the new Triumph 675 Street Triple.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-05-2012, 10:05 AM   #31 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: Street Triple R
 
Twism86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 973
__________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Twism86 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-05-2012, 12:00 PM   #32 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Site Supporter
Nova
Main Motorcycle: Custom 955 Speed-Tona
 
DEcosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pleasanton CA
Posts: 16,177
Other Motorcycle: Suzuki SV650S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeman View Post
I am more than willing to learn, could you please show me ........
The challenge was for you to support flawed theory, not for me to support mine

However, here it is:
slightly different revision (fuel pump relay added)* but the salient part is the same - as it is on virtually all the FI Triumphs
The current flow path is in bold red with 'conventional' current indicated by the arrows; the ignition power circuit goes through the key-switch then out through the fuse directly to the Kill/Run switch - note that there are no other off-shoots* between the Key-Switch and the Kill/Run switch - as stated, these switches are directly in series and breaking either does exact same thing. NONE of the other poles on the key-switch has anything to do with the ignition circuit.




* I acknowledge that on the later revision they added the ignition feed off the key-switch directly to the Fuel pump relay - this does not change anything as far as shut-down sequence goes.
That input to the FP relay could equally be un-switched (constant) power - in order to supply the pump itself, the control comes from the ECM on the 'low' side of the coil.
Note that shutting off the Fuel pump alone however does not kill the bike - there is still Fuel Pressure in the Rail.
Also note that regardless of there still being power to the input side of the Fuel Relay Pole, the ignition power to the coil (the Red/Green) comes from the output side of the Kill/Run switch (via the Alarm interlock) - so turning off either the Kill OR the ignition will shut off the FP relay regardless of what the low side of the coil is doing, or whether the input pole is powered or not

DEcosse is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 12:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
New Member
Production 125
Main Motorcycle: Street Triple
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEcosse View Post
I will also add that there is no constant power to the ECM - therefor what you are suggesting is that if bike is parked for an hour, that adaptive trim is lost? Don't think so!

The Key-switch and Kill/Run switch are directly in series with each other, with no parallel branch nodes off the connection between them; so when power is broken at either one, there is no way of the ECM possibly knowing which it was that removed the power from the circuit
Hi, DEcosse,
I don't have the schematic for neither the bike or the ECU, and I'm not willing to crack open my ECU just to see what chips are inside but if it has flash memory, then yes, it doesn't need power to retain the adaptive values. But then they could be overridden after the bike is turned off as the unit could be backed up by a capacitor, allowing it to operate long after the bike is turned off.

And yes, the ECU probably can't directly tell if the kill switch is on or off, but it is connected to a dozen different things and is able to tell which one is at what state. The instrument cluster for example doesn't turn off when the kill switch is cut off and it can most likely tell that. It should be easy to program the ECU so it operates differently depending on the state of the cluster.

So in general, it is possible for an ECU to operate differently when the kill switch is used. But I don't know if this particular unit does that (I doubt it) and I don't see any reason someone would program it so using the kill switch is harmful. There is still a possibility of a bug, but that's like worrying about the side stand breaking in half.

Last edited by masa; 12-05-2012 at 12:49 PM.
masa is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 12:40 PM   #34 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: '10 ST3R
 
Orangeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: S FL/USA
Posts: 959
DEcosse,
I appreciate your explanation. I (rather politely if I must add) asked because you have helped me with other non related issues in the past. It was explained to me as noted previously by a Triumph rep so the challenge was not mine to accept or deny, just to sit and learn

.
__________________
.

..My Bike..
Orangeman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 01:08 PM   #35 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Site Supporter
Nova
Main Motorcycle: Custom 955 Speed-Tona
 
DEcosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pleasanton CA
Posts: 16,177
Other Motorcycle: Suzuki SV650S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeman
I (rather politely if I must add) asked
Sincere & humble apologies on my part - read more into the request than was actually written

Quote:
Originally Posted by masa View Post
.... The instrument cluster for example doesn't turn off when the kill switch is cut off and it can most likely tell that. It should be easy to program the ECU so it operates differently depending on the state of the cluster.....
The instrument cluster back-lighting does not turn off with the Kill/Run - that is an ancillary circuit (part of lighting circuit), nothing to do with control circuit and the ECM is clueless (and rightly so) as to whether those lights are on or off.

There is no need to open up ECM, just look to the schematic posted and see that there is no constant power to ECM, nor any power that is applied to the ECM that is not controlled by the Key-Switch/Kill switch.

One interesting feature of the ECM power control - the ECM relay (22 or 23 depending on which schematic generation above you are using) - switches power from constant source back out to itself and to the coils, injectors etc; you will notice that when you turn off (either ignition OR Kill/Run) that the ECM relay does not drop out immediately - that click you hear a few seconds after you stop by whichever method - because the shutdown sequence keeps it latched while it writes to memory. That latch is controlled by the primary ignition circuit input (pink input per my second marked-up diagram) - and that is turned off by EITHER the Kill or Key.

Red is the ignition power circuit
Orange is constant power to the ECM Relay
Yellow is ECM controlled Latch for ECM Relay
Brown is ECM Relay output power.


DEcosse is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 03:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
New Member
Production 125
Main Motorcycle: Street Triple
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEcosse View Post
The instrument cluster back-lighting does not turn off with the Kill/Run - that is an ancillary circuit (part of lighting circuit), nothing to do with control circuit and the ECM is clueless (and rightly so) as to whether those lights are on or off.
My instrument cluster seems to be working beyond just back lighting though. The temperature gauge and gear indicator is working properly when the run switch is off. I don't have the wiring diagram/key table in hand so I can't tell but aren't the gear position sensor and the coolant temperature sensor hooked to the ECU, not directly to the instrument cluster?
masa is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 03:44 PM   #37 (permalink)
Super Moderator
Site Supporter
Nova
Main Motorcycle: Custom 955 Speed-Tona
 
DEcosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pleasanton CA
Posts: 16,177
Other Motorcycle: Suzuki SV650S
I don't see how that is possible when both signals are processed by ECM and output on the CANBUS. Ignition power into the cluster also goes off with either Key-Switch or Kill.
DEcosse is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 04:08 PM   #38 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: '10 ST3R
 
Orangeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: S FL/USA
Posts: 959
Does it have anything to do with the added branch from the input side of the stop switch to the instrument cluster in the Street Triple diagram but not in your original ?

Just checked and my cluster also stays fully active with the stop switch off, you can toggle gears and it updates, also maintained the temp reading after the bike was started and shut down with the switch ?

For verification...please note stop switch is in the off position.

__________________
.

..My Bike..
Orangeman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 04:16 PM   #39 (permalink)
New Member
Production 125
Main Motorcycle: Street Triple
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEcosse View Post
I don't see how that is possible when both signals are processed by ECM and output on the CANBUS. Ignition power into the cluster also goes off with either Key-Switch or Kill.
There got to be somewhere the cluster and the ECU is getting the power. Or maybe my bike was made on a Friday at 4:00PM and is wired differently
masa is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 04:24 PM   #40 (permalink)
Senior Member
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: '09 Triumph Daytona 675
 
OregonScrambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 583
Other Motorcycle: '14 Triumph Thruxton
Extra Motorcycle: Suzuki V-Strom 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by triplestrength View Post
It's in the same circut as ignition so shuts engine down as normal but can leave lights on so better to use ignition switch.
Urban myth that kill switch is harmful to engine settings.

Sent from my GT-I9100P using Motorcycle.com Free App
This exactly, they are part of the same circuit. Generally battery-key switch-kill switch. It makes absolutely no difference, the only thing that will get more wear is the switch

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Motorcycle.com App
__________________
“Bikes get you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no bikes.” —Phineas
OregonScrambler is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine stall-out/Shut-off at stop light/stop sign??? jrelloway Daytona Deliberations 11 04-02-2013 11:35 AM
Stop lamp switch Ageing rocker Classic, Vintage & Veteran 2 09-21-2011 01:56 PM
Stop Light Switch on 68 Bonnie Kev_England Classic, Vintage & Veteran 37 01-04-2010 03:54 PM
Stop Switch Lucas 6SA (D-Shape) snatchpiece Classic, Vintage & Veteran 7 08-08-2008 06:46 AM
Engine Stop Switch oldndumb Sprint Forum 25 05-29-2007 07:58 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:29 PM.



Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0