Batter, Jumpstart, Car, Terrible

[PunishmentHorse]

Hello All,
Bad news here. My Street Triple was sitting parked for about a month and the battery was dead.
Took her outside, hooked up the cables to my vehicle and waited, bike ventually turned over but sounded really rough and my gauges started showing speeds between 18 and 30 miles and then the bike died and will not start again. Any ideas on what I may have fried if anything? Looking forward to heading out for a ride tonight, but now it looks like I'm going to be looking for a way to get my bike to the shop. Thanks in advance for the advice.

PH.

[Ogre]

Buy a trickle charger if you're gonna let it sit like that.

I don't know what you fried but I'd start by checking the fuses.

Hopefully some mice didn't make a nest in your air cleaner....ewwwwwwww!

[lmnop88]

Was your vehicle running when you did this? I've been told that this is a no no.

Like the Ogre has mentioned, start by checking fuses. If not, get that bike towed to the shop. Worst case scenario, you blew the ECU.

[Diego]

A couple of things...

I think what Ogre had in mind was a battery minder, not literally a trickle charger. The latter just mindlessly pushes current through a battery whether it's charged or not, which can cause excessive evaporation, whereas a battery minder cuts off charge when full and monitors the state of the battery over the long haul.

Check fuses, check the air intake, check your fuel (level and quality, if possible). If the tank wans't full of fresh fuel when you let it sit, there could now be gum or debris in the fuel system. Others may have some more specific suggestions for you in that regard.

Also, check ground connections--the one for the battery, and any you can find in or around the instrument cluster. The spurious speedo readings are typical of faulty connections, especially ground connections. (Was the bike sitting where moisture could have gotten into the wiring?)

And when you say the bike "will not start again," what exactly does and does not happen when you turn on the switch and when you press the starter button? Is this with or without another battery connected? (If you're trying to depend on the still-dead or inadequately charged battery, the results will be poor at best.) Too few symptoms given here to really make any guesses about the cause. But even if we had more symptoms, it would still be desirable to rely on a dealer's diagnostic tools and expertise.

As for the jump start, that's honestly not a very good idea, no matter who has gotten away with doing it before. Too man risks. However, a little potential reassurance: if the voltage regulator is working correctly in the car, and since you apparently did not physically explode the motorcycle's battery in the process (the single biggest danger in jump-starting from a car), I'm inclined to think you did not do any lasting harm...this time. But the battery will probably never take a full charge again, having been dead for that long. So at the very least, you should be looking for a replacement for the battery.

[pelipen]

When I picked mine up from the dealership, he told me to go pick up a battery tender on the way home, since the electrics are very fussy with low battery conditions. He also said the bike will not charge the battery with short trips as there is a delay before the alternator kicks in. It's smart enough to figure out if a few more quick trips will kill the battery and won't start even if there is enough juice in it to start.

I'm not sure how true all of that is, it's a summary from my dealer, but I did get a tender for $30, and keep it plugged in when not in use. Cheap peace of mind, and the quick connect wiring is already there.

I've also been told, never jump a bike with a car. I hope a battery swap does the trick.

Post back if it works, I'm curious, and I doubt you're the first or last who will experience this... for future searches.

[Diego]

Pelipen, your dealer is ... well ... goofy.

It's true that short trips aren't always enough to maintain full charge, but it has nothing to do with any "delay" in the alternator. (At least, not delay in the sense of time delay; the inability of a system to deliver power until it has reached a certain RPM level might also be called delay in a different sense of the term.) The starter requires a lot of power from the battery each time it's used. The alternator can only output just so much current at any given RPM... much of which is required for the headlights and operation of the engine... so it takes a while to fully recharge the battery with the current that's left over. A few minutes usually won't be enough to get the battery all the way back to "full," and if you do that trip after trip, it becomes a cumulative effect.

Let's say you get the battery only 90% recharged each time you ride. The second time you start, you'll have 9/10ths of the battery's capability available. The third time, only 9/10ths of 9/10ths, or 81%. The fourth time it'll be 0.9 X 0.9 X 0.9, or a little over 70%. Eventually you won't have enough power to do the job. As for the business about:

It's smart enough to figure out if a few more quick trips will kill the battery and won't start even if there is enough juice in it to start.

...that's the part that's goofy. The engine management system does not attempt to predict your future usage patterns! It only decides whether it has enough power available to realistically try to start this time.

Apart from that, your dealer was right to say short trips aren't enough and to recommend a battery minder in your situation. It's only the reasons he gave that were off base.

[PunishmentHorse]

Originally Posted by Diego

...when you say the bike "will not start again," what exactly does and does not happen when you turn on the switch and when you press the starter button? Is this with or without another battery connected? (If you're trying to depend on the still-dead or inadequately charged battery, the results will be poor at best.) Too few symptoms given here to really make any guesses about the cause. But even if we had more symptoms, it would still be desirable to rely on a dealer's diagnostic tools and expertise.

Thanks for the reply.

The bike was connected to my vehicle battery and when the key was turned the instrument gauge did the familiar "lights on" routine and appeared fine. When I attempted to start the bike at that point, the instruments remained lit BUT there was not enough juice to turn the bike over so it just "clicked" and then nothing. Instruments stayed lit.

I let the bike sit attached to the vehicle battery for about 15 minutes, key off, and then re attempted to start it. Same result. I then started the vehicle to give it a more juice, the bike did indeed start at this point, but, as stated before ran terribly and my speedo started giving me crazy readings even though we weren't moving anywhere. The bike then stopped. Further attempts to start it were fruitless and now the gauge package will not even light up at all. I'm fine with having to buy a new battery but am worried that I've fried the electronics which will obviously be a pricier problem (any idea how much??), and, mean more time that I can't ride.

Any help is most welcome.

PH

[pelipen]

Originally Posted by Diego

...that's the part that's goofy. The engine management system does not attempt to predict your future usage patterns! It only decides whether it has enough power available to realistically try to start this time.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that, it does sound a little whacky, and I didn't google it to find out. But I've done enough programming to know it would be pretty easy to predict patterns based on past habits. Mitsubishi, Audi, others, adapt the shift points based on driving style. If I unlock my car with my wife's key, it becomes undriveable (for me). Which isn't to say Triumph would do such a thing (it's a bit absurd), but they could. I prefer to think they used the simple=better rule though. Certainly won't hurt my feelings if everyone calls BS on it.

I figured, I'm 4 miles to the office from door to door, and didn't want to get stuck if I didn't get a chance to run around town for a couple weeks. I have killed a battery with short hops on older equipment. (and leaving headlights, parking lights, dome lights... on)
I do think a tender is a good idea though, especially around here where mid winter doesn't get above freezing for a few months. Nice to be ready for that freak warm day.

Edit: Thought this sounded familiar...http://www.triumphrat.net/street-tri...ke-issues.html

[alphamang]

I've got you beat Pelipan, I've 2.5miles from door to door from home to work... however, I also go on 20-80mile rides daily, if not every other day, so I don't think I'm worried about that.

Sorry to be a little off topic but could someone explain why getting a jump from car is bad?

[Diego]

Why it's "bad," in short form: You never know the internal condition of the bike battery when you do this. If there's a shorted cell and you connect a heavier duty battery to it, enough current can flow through the battery to produce heavy electrolysis, and the tiniest spark within the resulting hydrogen and oxygen atmosphere inside the battery could explode it. Doesn't happen very often--but it DOES sometimes happen, and once is enough to do significant damage to the innards of your bike. It's a bigger risk of damage than jump starting another car because it's usually a more confined space in a bike.

Also, jump starting a dead bike with the other vehicle running carries additional risks. First, it means even more current is available than from the vehicle's battery alone, so that's riskier by itself--plus, you can't be certain what voltage is going to actually appear in the bike's electrical system. You could end up damaging the bike's voltage regulator as it tries to protect the engine management module from excess voltage. It's not designed to handle the current that a full size car or truck alternator is capable of sourcing; and once the regulator fails, then the module itself is next in line for damage. Again, it's not something that goes wrong too often, but once is enough and can cost big $$$.

A slightly better solution (if you're out in the middle of nowhere) is to remove the battery from the bike, and set it on the ground safely away from you on the other side of the car or truck before you make the final connection to the bigger vehicle's battery...and be prepared to let it charge for a good while (30 minutes or more). The best solution, however, involves patience: taking the battery out of the bike and to wherever it can be given an hour's charge at the quick-charge current specified on the battery's label.

There is no method of starting a motorcycle with a dead battery that is both fast and safe. It's one or the other.