breaking(lapping) in a new engine

[rodneybrown]

Told ya Harry, it ain't politically correct to go against "logical thinking engine builders." You might be accused of being a "goofball." At least motoman provides some evidence his method works, far from being definitive, but proof none the less. If you do some searchs on motoman on some of the other sport bike lists, there are quite a few proponants of the method with the same anecdotal evidence the traditional guys have. On this list there have been several advocates of the traditional method chime in "it works for me" but they usually have 30 or 40K miles on the bike. Even if it were 70K, it really doesn't say much one way or the other. Even if you do mistreat them, they are tough and should push 100K without serious troubles (although there does seem to be a group that has problems at aroung 70K).

[harrya13]

Hey Rod,

Bought my 02 used with 2000 klm on the clock (1200 miles) - so I could not test this theory - but it does make some sense when you read his explanation. If I ever trade up from the 02 (why would you want to ? ) i will have a good look at the break in method - but don't hold your breath as I am yet to find anything that I like or suits me as well as the red 02.

ps: The first owner bought it when his wife was overseas - she came back home and you can guess what happened - I saved about A$2000 off the new price



[ This message was edited by: harrya13 on 2006-07-27 00:44 ]

[HiVel]

I use Diesel truck oil and flog elivin hell out of the bike. It works for me.

Gent's,

For what it's worth; I did a lot of research on running in a new engine and here's what I found - Exact same model; different running in methodologies.

I have owned both a brand new 2005 Sprint ST 1050 and a 2006 model. The 2005 model was unfortunately "lost" when I t-boned a car that ran the red light while crossing a six lane intersection. He didn't "see" the red light - but luckily I saw him at the last minute and hit the brakes. If I didn't - I don't think I'd be here now. Oh, well.

The 2005 model was run in at the manufacturers recommended RPM / Milage plan. No exceptions. Oil and filter changed at 100 miles, then it had it's usual 600 mike service. Everything was fine and it ran really well (until the accident, that is).

I looked at other bikes (including the ZX-14) but decided to opt for the Sprint again as I commute 80 miles a day and it's by far the most comfortable bike for my height / frame (5' 11" / 170 lbs).

On picking up the new '06 Sprint, the dealer advised me to run it up to 6,000 RPM ("don't drive it like you stole it - but don't be scared to give it some juice either"). He also commented that they have less long term problems (such as oil leaks) if it's run a "little hotter".

I followed the advice and after the 600 mile service was told to take it easy for the next 400 miles but I could take it up to 8,000 RPM in spurts. I did this too.

The upshot of all this is that the second method proved itself to be the best bet. The difference was a marked improvement and increased torque.

I have a run I do some days on a fairly long and empty striaghtway but it has limited length. On the old '05 I got it up to 148 and it was pretty slow to crawl up there once past 130. The '06 just screamed past 130 and kept going to over 154 before I had to shut down - and it would have kept going if I hadn't run out of tarmac. Nuff said.

and I ain't talking KMPH.

Very useful thread and a bit of contention that follow some similar philosophies.

Found these references in my search:
PVD - Engine Break In
PVD Engine Break-In Oil Pics
This one has a great pic of the break-in process and the problem of glazing.
Cessna Engine Break-In

This bloke Peter Verdone is big on frequent oil changes early on. By that, read within in the 1st 50km. Look at the pics of his CBR600 break-in oil that give his view credence.

I'll chew over all this because I'm about a week off getting my new ST. I followed the factory break-in regime for the 2000 ST that I have in the garage and can't complain about how it runs. It's been checked over in preparation for the trade and has come up trumps, so I must have taken reasonable care.

Thanks for all the useful input. Especially Don for getting the thread started..

Just a couple of things:

If the temperatures attained during boundary lubrication conditions (since they will never be this high during hydrodynamic operation) of the cam lobes, bearings, etc, are high enough to cause a metallurgical change in the parts, they will be junk. No heat treating can occur in a running engine. The temperatures to make these changes are at a minimum 600 degrees F.

Next, the "scratches" in the cam lobes, gears, cylinder walls, etc.. are all vital to hydrodynamic lubrication. The metal parts are not designed to ever touch, only ride on a film of oil between each other. The scratches or grooves act as reservoirs for the lubricating oil. During run-in, the tips of these scratches or grooves are flattened into plateaus, which allow for more bearing area on which the oil can "spread out." (results in less stress on the oil film.) This is the only concern re: break in, the formation of these plateaus. High loads on the gears, whether during accel or decel, could cause tearing of the surface rather than conditioning (this being pure speculation on my part)... this was once true for the cylinder walls, but I have to assume that Triumph is in the 21st century with the rest of us and uses plateau honing, which makes the formation of the plateaus by riding the bike a non-issue. I was talking with some guys from Ford (heh) a while back and they mentioned that there was a plateau honing type operation in use for gears at this point, I'm unsure as to what gears. (Auto transmission, rearend...??)

Some folks will mention rod side clearances, but that's actually checked these days and the finish is pretty good. If you're rubbing hard enough to remove metal you're in big trouble. I re-read the first post and it mentioned springs, the only thing I could find on that is one heat cycle before high rpms is a good idea; this probably happened at the factory or the dealers (where, regrettably, the rings were seating at idle.)

You can take my advice with a grain of salt, or even talk to some engineering type folks around it. I've just read a few white papers and talked with mechanics who work on machines that cost 100's of times what these bikes do. An engineer told me once that the ideal cylinder wall condition is "perfectly smooth." and that the only reason that they're not manufactured that way is excessive machining costs. Even today, it's tough to get the right information.

If anyone can add to what I've written go ahead, I'm always open to new ideas.


edit: my break in procedure:

Warm engine before heavy loads, Moderate to high cylinder pressure (load), vary rpms (redline ok.) oil change after the first couple of rides and then at 200 kilometers or so (machining/clutch residue and the aformentioned plateau peaks!), synthetic at the first scheduled change. Try to stay out of the rev limiter, esp. on carbed bikes. Never lug the engine, old or new.

I think that you have to try pretty hard to spoil an engine during break in, and the worst thing to do is idle around. So hit it hard, you only live once, and I hate the prospect of my machines outliving me!

[ This message was edited by: eighty6gt on 2006-08-08 22:50 ]

[rodneybrown]

Hey 86GT,
I'm sure glad you put in those last two paragraphs, because most of what preceded them made my head go to the point of melt down :-D When it comes to bikes and issues like oil, tires, and breakin methods, science and engineering have limited impact.
Rod

[Isa]

On 2006-07-28 18:30, MAd_Brit67 wrote:
Gent's,

For what it's worth; I did a lot of research on running in a new engine and here's what I found - Exact same model; different running in methodologies.

I have owned both a brand new 2005 Sprint ST 1050 and a 2006 model. The 2005 model was unfortunately "lost" when I t-boned a car that ran the red light while crossing a six lane intersection. He didn't "see" the red light - but luckily I saw him at the last minute and hit the brakes. If I didn't - I don't think I'd be here now. Oh, well.

The 2005 model was run in at the manufacturers recommended RPM / Milage plan. No exceptions. Oil and filter changed at 100 miles, then it had it's usual 600 mike service. Everything was fine and it ran really well (until the accident, that is).

I looked at other bikes (including the ZX-14) but decided to opt for the Sprint again as I commute 80 miles a day and it's by far the most comfortable bike for my height / frame (5' 11" / 170 lbs).

On picking up the new '06 Sprint, the dealer advised me to run it up to 6,000 RPM ("don't drive it like you stole it - but don't be scared to give it some juice either"). He also commented that they have less long term problems (such as oil leaks) if it's run a "little hotter".

I followed the advice and after the 600 mile service was told to take it easy for the next 400 miles but I could take it up to 8,000 RPM in spurts. I did this too.

The upshot of all this is that the second method proved itself to be the best bet. The difference was a marked improvement and increased torque.

I have a run I do some days on a fairly long and empty striaghtway but it has limited length. On the old '05 I got it up to 148 and it was pretty slow to crawl up there once past 130. The '06 just screamed past 130 and kept going to over 154 before I had to shut down - and it would have kept going if I hadn't run out of tarmac. Nuff said.

and I ain't talking KMPH.

This seems to be a topic that will continue to have have as many "right" answers as there are bikes.

I purchased my 2004 RS, new, last October. I went by the Triumph guidelines as far as not go over the rpms, and then have the first service at 500 miles (actually about 550 miles). During the break in, I went by guidelines of vary the rpms, don't go over the max rpm for the mileage, but to take it right up to around the max. No hot rodding, dragging or the such. Outcome, had to have the cylinder liners replaced, new rings etc. etc.. During 4,000 miles I rode after the first service, I had to add 6 quarts of oil. And the bike ran like hell, and had awful gas mileage of about 42 mpg at constant speed on the interstate (burning so much oil, it at least should have burned less gas :-D ).

After the complete overhaul (thank you Triumph warranty), I took the attitude of not going over the rpms, varying the rpms, but other than that, just riding the way I normally do. Waited 1000 miles for the first service. Results: my bike runs great. Get 48 - 50 mpg going through "fun" winding roads.

I don't know that one way was wrong, and the other was right though. It seems to me, that I have heard of a dozen ways that have worked for people, but that these same ways have not worked for others: and I really haven't heard anything that really explains that very well.

[MNSpintST]

Engine braking or compression braking actually places more pressure on the piston than coasting with the clutch in.

On the intake stroke there is a greater vaccum since the engine wants to spin faster than the current throttle opening...

Despite this greater vaccum there is more air in the cylinder than an intake stroke with the same throttle opening and the clutch squeezed...

Therefore on the compression side there is more air/fuel being compressed.

On an injected motor the MAP sensor and the TPS signals are enough for the ECU to know to back off fuel... Cylinder wash down of fuel will not be a problem..

Due to the local climate I may end up with a dyno break in...

No I wont dyno for peak power or anything right away...

You can control the load on the engine and rpm very precisely... So you can do a good job of keeping it in the RPM specs and putting enough load on it to seat the rings..

[rifleart]

Hi Dolson, thanks for the run in info, in the next month or so I'm about to pick up a new ' 07 Speed Triple and hope to run it in properly. At present I'm having fun on an '06 Bonneville.

I live in New Zealand but spent 4 years in the early '80s living in Portland, OR. Worked as an A & P mechanic for Horizon Air after attending A & P School at Portland Community College. Am a pilot now flying A320s, they're interesting aircraft.

Anyway, the talk of lapping brought back some memories of my days at A & P School during engine overhaul classes. :gpst: :hihi: