Need Help - Getting the bike running right after a long spell

[Matto]

Hi all,

Quick backstory. Bought the 05 Sprint (1050) brand new in 2005 - was one of the first off the boat in Aus. As it currently sits, the bike has done ~7800kms. Over the last 3-4 years, it will have been lucky to have done 100kms. Nothing special was done to the bike before sitting so long, my back and neck just got to a stage where I can no longer ride it without ending up in bed.

For the last 4 yrs the bike has been parked in the garage, under a cover, with a baby Ctek charger attached to the battery. About 1.5-2 years ago I put some time into getting it running, but hit the same problems as I have now, so it went back into the garage. Keep in mind that before it was put away, it was running perfectly.

Up until now I've been holding onto the bike, hoping that I'll get myself fixed up and will be able to ride again. I've finally come to peace with the fact that that is a very unlikely outcome, so the next best thing is to sell it rather than have it slowly rot to pieces. Some lucky person is going to get basically a brand new Sprint, for not much money at all.

Because of the low resale potential I'm trying to do as much work myself, rather than just drop it into the shop and saying "fix this please". No point me spending $2k to get it running when realistically I'm only going to be able to get $8k for it. Also, I'm not such a big fan of the local dealership, let's say. That said, I'm not interesting in just tarting it up and making it someone else's problem - emphasis is on getting it running right, as it should, rather than just slapping some lipstick on it and passing it off.

So, what I've done so far:

• Pull the airbox & filter, confirmed all is good and clean in there
• checked throttle bodies / butterflies, hoses, etc
• Drain the tank
• Emptied a 200ml bottle of neat injector cleaner into the tank, and pumped through the injectors, left overnight
• Added 20L of brand new premium fuel (bought that day), and primed through the fuel rail.
• Have got the bike to fire up and run, and have taken it for a brief ride

What it's doing:

• It won't idle well. Sometimes it will chug along smoothly, then suddenly stall. Sometimes it will start straight back up, other times you'll need to try a few times before it will fire.
• It will rev freely, and quickly. Any hesitation that it has at idle completely disappears as the engine speed rises.
• When riding it, it pulls as hard as ever and runs smooth.
• When riding it, large throttle openings at low RPM can cause an intermittent miss/stutter, which I believe is due to the concentration of injector cleaner in the fuel.
• When riding it, as soon as you even think about maybe moving your finger to possibly touch the clutch, the engine stalls. Straight down, no mucking about. Makes it difficult to ride, and is responsible for the nice black S on the road coming up to the first set of lights on my test ride

This is the stage I got it to last time, and then pretty much just gave up (because my heart wasn't in selling it). This time I'd like to actually get it running right.

My theories, in order of liklihood:

• TPS sensor bad/misadjusted. ECU is letting the revs drop on a closed throttle without even trying to hold the butterflies open. How to test (without TuneBoy)?
• Idle stepper motor??? Seems to come up in the TuneBoy threads that discus the TPS?
• Stuffed injectors - gummed up from years of stale fuel sitting in them. How to tell?
• Stuffed coil(s). I've had the plugs out, visually they look fine, but ???.
• kinked vacuum hose somewhere. I've had the tank off a couple of times, so it's entirely possible I've pinched/left something disconnected.
• Maybe MAF sensor related?

I'm not super-keen on just replacing parts willy-nilly until I stumble upon the answer, so thought I'd best check here with the knowledgable Sprint minds to see what you would recommend.

Thoughts? Suggestions? All help will be most graciously accepted.

Thanks to all.
Matto

[DaveM]

Matto I will leave the answers to those better qualified than I.

But I wanted to say how commendable and responsible you are being in wanting to get it properly sorted prior to selling.

hat's off to you sir

cheers and good luck
Dave

[Matto]

Cheers Dave, thanks for the encouragement.

I've bought my fair share of lemons in the past, and would hate to inflict surprises like that onto someone when they've just got their new toy. Seems silly to throw good money after bad when the only reason I'm fixing it is to gift it to someone else, but hey - "do unto others", and all that.

Plus, I owe it to the bike. Poor thing - built for long distance, and just sitting around slowly going bad. It's certainly not what I expected would happen when we picked it up shiney and new in Bris way back when. It's the least I can do for such an impressive machine.

Hopefully it will sell quickly. I'm not super confident on that, but all you can do is put it out there and hopefully someone recognises it for what it is. If it sticks around, my resolve will crumble and I'll end up keeping it .

Cheers!
Matto

[KitNYC]

As Dave said, kudos for wanting to get it running right before you sell!

I'm not much of an expert on the 1050s, but I do have a one thing that might help:

How to put this diplomatically? Not everyone was happy with TuneBoy, so TuneECU happened. Takes the cost of testing down to $20.

Cheers,
-Kit

[Matto]

Thanks for the tip Kit. I might take the plunge on one of those cables. As you say, $20 to have a look inside the ECU and see what it's seeing is probably a good step. I might order one of the cables tonight to get it on it's way.

My gut tells me there's not much wrong with the bike, it's just sorting out that one little thing and then it'll be perfect (again).

Again, thanks for the tip-off.
Matto

[Matto]

Ok - some more observations. Hopefully this might jolt someone's memory.

Tonight I played a bit more:

• bike started straight up, but wouldn't idle. Would run for a bit, then stall.
• if I held the throttle above 3k RPM, it ran beautifully. When it dropped below that, it started to hunt and muck about.
• pulled the tank & airbox. Everything looked good.
• checked the vacuum tubes, no kinks, and everything looked in good condition (no noticeable perishing, etc)
• the three vacuum tubes off the throttle bodies are all clear and not blocked.
• the TPS is aligned with the paint marks from factory
• disconnected every connector I could get my hands on, gave them a magic blow, and reconnected.

When reassembling I noticed a couple of things:

• there are two vacuum tubes that attach to the RHS of the tank. One has green tape on it, the other red. Both these aren't sealing correctly onto the tank connectors. Prob need to replace them. Tried disconnecting them, leaving them open, blocking them off, no difference to the bike running.
• there is an electrical connector on the RHS of the tank. I believe it to be the fuel gauge sender. The connector is covered in oil. The terminals seem to be in good condition, and the fuel gauge works well.

I reassembled everything, and instantly I'm a genius - the bike started and idled perfectly. Ran for 5 mins, then stalled and started to play up again. So maybe I was lucky?

I've disconnected the battery now and will leave it overnight to see if it resets the ECU. It's worth a shot.

Thoughts?

Cheers!
Matto

[armarra]

Originally Posted by Matto

Ok - some more observations. Hopefully this might jolt someone's memory.

Tonight I played a bit more:

• bike started straight up, but wouldn't idle. Would run for a bit, then stall.
• if I held the throttle above 3k RPM, it ran beautifully. When it dropped below that, it started to hunt and muck about.
• pulled the tank & airbox. Everything looked good.
• checked the vacuum tubes, no kinks, and everything looked in good condition (no noticeable perishing, etc)
• the three vacuum tubes off the throttle bodies are all clear and not blocked.
• the TPS is aligned with the paint marks from factory
• disconnected every connector I could get my hands on, gave them a magic blow, and reconnected.

When reassembling I noticed a couple of things:[list][*] there are two vacuum tubes that attach to the RHS of the tank. One has green tape on it, the other red. Both these aren't sealing correctly onto the tank connectors. Prob need to replace them. Tried disconnecting them, leaving them open, blocking them off, no difference to the bike running.[*] there is an electrical connector on the RHS of the tank. I believe it to be the fuel gauge sender. The connector is covered in oil. The terminals seem to be in good condition, and the fuel gauge works well.[\list]

I reassembled everything, and instantly I'm a genius - the bike started and idled perfectly. Ran for 5 mins, then stalled and started to play up again. So maybe I was lucky?

I've disconnected the battery now and will leave it overnight to see if it resets the ECU. It's worth a shot.

Thoughts?

Cheers!
Matto

Matt,

you're going about this the right way.

when all is said and done there are only 2 things that can stop a good motor running

electrical
air/fuel

The symptoms that you were describing about rough running at slow revs and okay at higher revs sounded exactly like mine when I had the fuel pressure drop on me because of some tubing inside the tank that mean't not all the fuel pressure was getting out of the tank.

But then you said you got it running perfectly for a short time then back to square one.

The intermittent and sudden nature of the fault sounds electrical in nature, yet the high rev versus low rev stumble mimicks my fuel delivery problem.

Unlike the 955, the 1050 has an fuel pressure regulator that is inside the tank, but it can fail too. For such an young machine its unlikely to have a TB balance problem or tps alignment and the fact that it ran perfectly after you unsettled the tank tends to point towards a fuel delivery issue doesn't it.

The connector covered in oil on the right hand side sounds troublesome. where is that oil coming from ? there are two connectors, one is the fuel pump itself and the other is the sender. If the oil on that wire is shorting out the fuel pump...then there's your fuel delivery problem !

Its a particular direction I'm sending you here, but from what you've mentioned and my experience with fuel delivery/pressure effects on running engine, it sounds like that is worth investigating.

clean up that connector in case it is the fuel pump and not just the sender, and see if you can determine where the oil is coming from.

Rod.

[silverfish]

Could also be O2 sensors giving false readings. I would try switching them off in tuneecu just to check if they are the cause.

silverfish

[Matto]

Thanks for the help Rod & Silverfish.

I like the way you're thinking Rod. I might pull the tank again, and remove the in-tank pump. See if it's got a filter in there that might be clogged/gummed up.

My thinking was that any fuel pressure/starvation issues would show up more at higher RPM, where the engine is drawing a higher volume of fuel, rather than at idle where even a blocked filter would hopefully be able to pressurise the rail. That's why I'd been avoiding pulling the fuel pump. But I like your train of thought, so will give it a go. The fact that it mimics your problem gives me good confidence that we might be onto something. It's certainly not something I've tried yet.

Aside - My lawnmower was running terribly recently, and after mucking about with it for weeks I found a secondary brass fuel filter inside the carby that was completely clogged. Cleaned that, and it works a treat (well, it would have, if I hadn't managed to lose a needle valve out of the carby at the same time - you win some, you lose some). I should have been thinking along those lines with the Sprint.

I'll clean up the other connector too. I'm 96% certain it's the gauge sender, but it's worth fixing. As to where the oil has come from - absolutely no idea. There's no oil on the wires, or the frame that the connector sits against, or anywhere else under there. Just on the connector itself. It's strange. Will get some contact cleaner onto it.

Silverfish - I will try the O2 disable once I get the TuneECU sorted. Haven't bought the cable yet - still deciding whether I should get that deep into the ECU or if that's the line where I should hand it off to the dealer. The wife is recommending the latter, for a lot of good reasons.

Cheers gents.

No progress yesterday - dug a couple of holes for a little retaining wall and cut the sleeper to size. Tonight, dinner at the in-law's place to celebrate the wife's grandfather's birthday. Will post back with results on the weekend.

Cheers!
Matto

[oldndumb]

Things to consider:

The TPS signal is not primary once above 6% throttle.

There is no MAF so don't waste your time looking in the intake tract for one.

Th O2 sensor signal is used for adaptation which is done at idle in the 05.

A disconnected MAP can cause all sorts of problems. All of the map hose connections would be my first check. This would not be the first time someone has checked them only to find that something was overlooked.

Your bike also has a barometric pressure sensor, lower left side in front of the air box. That hose integrity is another possible fault.

On a positive note: You do not mention an MIL light. I'm thinking it must have one and that you could get the code via TueEcu. Not having TuneEcu, most current generic ones will read the generic OBD codes, although not the proprietary Triumph codes. Engine running fault codes are generic. Problem is getting the bike to an auto-store that offers that service.

As for the fuel pressure, it is not difficult, although slightly dangerous without precautions, to install a cheap fuel line tester between the pump outlet and rail inlet. Well that is a safe operation, the slightly unsafe one I meant to refer to was removing the injector rail with injectors attached and position a bread pan under them and observe their patterns. Anything grossly divergent from the norm will be evident.

My crystal ball never was very good, but I'm beginning to think that your symptoms sort of resemble a bike trying to go through adaptation or suffering intermittent fuel delivery problems, maybe from a clogged strainer. If it comes down to the strainer (fuel filter) be advised you will need to buy a new pump. We do have a member who had the genius to develop a work around to install another filter to the existing pump. Let us know if it comes down to that and either he or I will supply the particulars.