Triumphrat

Triple Ripple · 01-05-2009, 10:24 PM

An update on my mysterious disappearing oil where the oil consumption was increasing as my mileage increased. Visited my dealer today to see what they found out after they tore my engine apart. All three cylinder liners and all three pistons are worn beyond the service limits! The cylinder liners are now an oval shape. The pistons also rockered when they were inside the liners. The oil pump is good as are all the valve seals (except for some question on the number 1 intake valve seal). The crankshaft bearings are worn from the excessive play in the pistons. Amazingly none of this was indicated by the good leak down measurements.

As my bike exhibited oil spatter out the exhaust and some oil loss right from get go, that quality oil and regular changes were followed and that the recommended Triumph break-in schedule was followed, the thought is that something was not right with the cylinder liners from the time they were assembled in the factory. The service people have never seen wear like this before. The statement was made that this is the type of wear you may see at 60,000 kms and certainly not at 14,000.

The warranty parts are on order and I get to break in a new engine next spring again. Hopefully with the attention it is getting this time around, I won't have to worry about oil loss ever again.

As a side bonus, my complaint about the big clunk going into first and second was cleared up. The clutch plates had dry spots even at this stage of life and there were some imprints from adjacent dry plates on each other. They will be soaked for quite a time before being reinstalled.

Here are some photos of the damage to one cylinder liner:

And the other side as well!

Calliway · 01-05-2009, 11:03 PM

What the hell........ that is just bizarre. I am very glad you got it down this far and are finding answers to the questions.

DaveM · 01-06-2009, 12:51 AM

Great feedback Triple Ripple as yours was a really mystifying case when you brought it up and as you say you did all the right things and still had an issue.

Thank you for providing this information to everyone here and also I am happy for you that it is finally being sorted out.

My own 2004 Sprint ST now has 60,000 of hard riding kms on it and it uses about 200mls of oil every 5000kms and my exhaust is always a nice colour and very clean.

cheers,
DaveM

Lazarus Long · 01-06-2009, 08:55 AM

Weird, just weird. The German motorcycle magazine Motorrad ( http://www.motorradonline.de/home ) tests bikes they riden for 50.000 km and have done so for the last 20 years. They did this with the 1050 Sprint and theirs was not even close to have that wear, infact it was so good that it managed a second place beating bikes like Honda VFR abs, BMW k 1200 S, Suzuki V-Strom 1000, Suzuki GSX-R 1000, Kawasaki ZX-10R, BMW R 1200 GS. It was only beaten by Honda CBF 1000 and that was only on cost/km.

These test look on wear and tear, pick apart the engine and measuring most parts, look at how often (if any) you have to visit the garage for repairs, cost of owning the bike (service, fuel consumtion, changing parts like brake pads and chain and so on).

Right now they are testing the Ducati 1098 and so far they had a major break down at 26.000 km with a cracked piston.

oldndumb · 01-06-2009, 10:55 AM

Bizzare and weird are appropriate!

A properly performed leak down test should have indicated an out of spec rate.

One thing that I noticed in the pics was lack of evidence of sealant on the liner to case seal areas. Did they clean it off before the pics were taken?

Is the clutch soak something your shop recommended, and if so, what is their rationale?

On a side note, once this condition began, an ordinary magnetic drain plug could have provided an indication of excessive wear. I can not understand having any engine without one. It might not prevent a problem, but it surely provides visual evidence of excessive wear.

Whatever the facts are in your situation, the important thing is that it is being taken care of via the warranty. I was glad to read that part.

Triple Ripple · 01-06-2009, 12:03 PM

I do not know how much cleaning of the sealant, if any, was done before the picture. The mechanic mentioned that there was evidence of oil getting into the coolant areas. It is hard to visualize with the head being torqued down but would a lack of sealant lead to the liners becoming loose enough for this wear to manifest? There appears to be more wear at the bottom of the sleeve as opposed to the top.

I use a magnet on my oil filter but never cut open the filter to see how much metal there may be attracted to it. Maybe it's time to change tack. As for the soak, the mechanic said he would give the plates a thorough soak before reinstalling the clutch. Will this help? There has been a recall on the clutch with other Triumphs but not with the Sprint.

And yes, I am very glad the mechanic went the extra mile and pushed Triumph for the authorization to tear down the engine

oldndumb · 01-06-2009, 12:26 PM

Sealant, or lack of, does not have any bearing on liner retention. It is there to keep the oil and coolant separate.

A magnetic drain plug is a heck of a lot easier that cutting the filter open.....not as messy ether.

Soaking the clutch for some period of time before installation is a myth that never seems to go away (among others

). Doing it will not hurt anything. Not doing it will not hurt anything either, so long as the frictions and steels are coated with oil prior to installation. Kevlar frictions are a different story.

Dolson has provided relevant and excellent advice in the sticky re engine break in procedures.

The root cause of your engine problem will be determined at the factory after they examine the parts. I doubt we will ever learn the results. As I've said before, if it is a machine, it is statistically subject to break down, no matter how well it is maintained.

RexxyPup · 01-06-2009, 02:34 PM

OnD.

Just a thought, but if sealant was specified at the top of the liner, would there be any minor compensation in fit tolerances to allow for a fine layer? Even a thou?

If there was, and the sealant was missing, this may, over time be sufficient to begin to allow the liner to move fractionally.... especially if the wear is primarily at the bottom of the sleeve, where side load is greatest, which would turn the sleeve length into a lever with the deck shoulder as the fulcrum.

Just a thought

Rexx

Speedy Russ · 01-06-2009, 11:24 PM

Thanks for this post Triple Ripple!!! The symptoms you experienced with your bike sound exactly like what I am currently experiencing with my 2007 Speed Triple that I bought new in June of 2007. Ever since my 12,000 mile service a few months ago, I have been using about 250 mL of oil every 1,000 miles. I now have a bit over 18,000 miles on the bike. There is also a heavy buildup of soot with an occaisional dark splatter on my pipes. I would bet my a.s.s. that what happened to your bike is happening to mine. I'll be pointing my dealer out to this thread and see what happens. Thanks again man!

Russ

chisel · 01-07-2009, 04:42 AM

It looks like a typical case of debris in the cylinder. If all three cylinders are marked, you prolly got something past the filter somehow. If it's just one, it prolly came in through the plug hole.

It's not unheard of for someone to accidentally get some grit in a spark plug hole. For example, when they have the plugs removed to make spinning the crank easier when checking valve clearances.

A pic of the piston would be nice.

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