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Bike identification and hot exhaust issues

5K views 67 replies 4 participants last post by  Paulnew73 
#1 ·
Hi all

I've just bought a custom 509 with issues. The problem it has is the exhausts are getting super hot to the point they're going blue. I touched it with my glove and the glove melted straight through! Due to a seized fuel pump the previous owner had fitted a 1050 tank and pump to the bike. He believes this is when the problem started. I know, even though they have the same specs, they work slightly differently. I'm guessing the pump is putting too much fuel through the engine and some is being burned in the pipes.

I would like to replace the pump with an original / after market. Another issue is, even though the bikes V5 designates it as a 1999 T509, it states the engine capacity as 955cc. I know 1999 was an oddball year and the first time this engine was introduced to the triple but why is it not a 595?

Please can anyone shed light on the model or any insight to the hot exhaust issue

Paul
 

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#2 ·
It's hard to tell from that small photo .........

Two quick identifiers that you can check

1. The radiator is much smaller on the 885 engine vs the 955 engine

2. The exhaust header is quite different - the 885 header is unique to that motor, head has round ports and gaskets & 'loose' flanges; the 955 & 1050 headers all interchangeable.

I can't really tell what you have (although look like 955) but here is a good pic of 885 headers (note no crossover pipe particularly)



compare with these 955 headers (note the cross-over and welded flanges)
The collector also looks more similar to your pic .............






Now for your problem:
I think you have reversed logic - pipes getting hot and blue usually indication of lean, not rich.
It would un-mistaken if rich, it would be absolutely reeking (gas smell)
But regardless, the fuel pressure regulator in either case is the same pressure (3 bar) so even though the pump is different the delivered pressure will be same (or should be if configured correctly).

One major difference in the pump configs is that the 1050 tank is single feed, with regulator in the outflow, inside the tank - there is no return.
on the 885/955 generations, the regulator is on the return side (after the return fitting in terms of direction of flow)
It is hard to see how the flow from a 1050 pump would NOT be regulated - the single line output is already regulated and the original return from fuel rail merely required to be blanked off.

I would suspect it just has the incorrect map in there - presumably you have the original older style Sagem MC2000 (single connector) ECU?
What map are you running?

One
 
#3 ·
Ok so here's a few pics of the bike. As for the smell of patrol, it does. So in your opinion changing the pump would not make any difference.

By the way, cheers for the advice, I need all I can get. I may have bitten off more than I can chew!
 

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#6 ·


^^^ That is a First Gen T595 Daytona exhaust - this was the only header that had individual downpipes connected to the collector with springs

And therefor the bike must definitely be a 955 engine as it would not fit on an 855 cylinder head.

So in your opinion changing the pump would not make any difference.
Correct

I believe its still the original (map)
Which is what??? You need to get the map using TuneECU
 
#8 ·
What I have sussed so fa is; Front brakes are Brembo with Goodridge hoses, Pazzo adjustable race levers, custom fabricated yokes and risers with Renthals. Rear brake is a new Brembo rotor with titanium disc bolts and new Brembo pads. Front forks are Showa and the nose cone is from a KTM Duke. Full stainless exhaust, alloy tail tidy with LED rear light. I've got to admit, I bought it because I liked the look of it and didn't mind tinkering with it. I had no idea it was going to be such a mismash of bikes. But as I said it does look good and sounds great I just want it to run like it looks.

Anyway cheers for that, you've probably saved me a load of money and grief. I have no idea how to get a map from the bike. Unless this is something relatively easy to achieve I guess it’s to a bike shop. I've seen dyno testing and set up for £160. Does that sound fair?
 
#9 ·
Most likely the dyno tune is using a Power Commander - and that price does NOT include the hardware for that.
If they are using TuneECU, then is probably pretty good.
The other question you would need to ask however is how much are they tuning?
Many will just do a 100% full-power map and give you a pretty picture for bragging rights.
What you would want is a full-matrix map - that is at all throttle openings and engine rpms

Regardless you should get yourself a Diagnostic Cable (~£20) and download TuneECU - invaluable tool for EFI diagnosis and mapping.
Then you can identify what map is currently installed and even swap it with another suitable for your engine -
There are 4 variants you can select from for your 99 model;
3 factory (one standard exhaust, one high exhaust and one low exhaust) and there is one custom map posted by a user.

Note there is an entire sub-forum dedicated to EFI Tuning of which about 98% of content is TuneECU related, including a LOT of Q & A
(and the TuneECU website itself has excellent UserGuide)

All Triumph headers are stainless
Your exhaust system is a hybrid of early T595 Daytona Headers and 1050 Speed Triple OEM stock cans.
 
#13 ·
Update to the fuel issues

Having had a quote for £550 for a power commander I've decided to look into the pump a little further. As the bike worked fine before the fuel pump change I think I will try and source an original and see what happens.

This is the original pump and the one currently fitted. The old return has been blanked off.
 

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#15 ·
Don't know about your new pump config but that old one is DEFINITELY wrong - it has no regulator in operation the way it has been configured
It almost looks like an older dual-line config but have no idea what that pump body is from - definitely not a Speed Triple!

So - if it was running 'fine' but not regulated, then the higher pressure was somewhat (inadvertently) compensating for what would otherwise be (incorrect) lean map.
And if you now put in a properly regulated pump, then it would be lean.



You need to be sure the new pump - which looks like the later tank type - has pressure regulation.
If in any doubt, measure it with a fuel pressure gauge - it should regulate to 3 bar.

p.s. I presume you have metal tank? (~ 08+)
The pic I posted is metal plate pump for a plastic tank (05-07) - the plastic pump in your pic I believe is for metal tank; they are not interchangeable.
So that 'original' metal plate pump is definitely not from an S3 - it looks nothing like that!

Edit - it looks like your original (metal plate) pump is from a TT600/Speed 4/Daytona 600/650 that someone has modified
Apparently the dual line TT600 pump seems to have same flange size as the later (plastic) 08 S3 Fuel Tank.
It looks like it probably has the correct S3 pump in there NOW therefor it SHOULD be properly regulated.

Step 1 - ensure you have 3 bar coming from new pump (although it probably does if this was replaced as a whole module.)
Step 2 - you need to get a proper map* for your 955 engine (see the other thread I linked)

* Start by just getting the map downloaded from the ECU using TuneECU to identify it - if it has the original 885cc engine map that explains everything.

You are also going to have to identify which fuel rail you have - again, see the other linked thread.
 
#16 ·
Update

So the bike has an MC2000 ECU and the old (885) injectors.

Would it be worthwhile changing the injectors to the T595 type?

I've bought a tune ecu interface cable which should arrive tomorrow. Once I've got it I will have a go at finding out which map is currently loaded.
 
#17 ·
... So the bike has an MC2000 ECU and the old (885) injectors....
Almost guaranteed that the mapping is incorrect - whether it was running one of the std 885 maps or one the std 955 maps.
You'll just have to see what you are starting with & go from there;
but you definitely want a 955 map for basis and either match up the injectors or change the flow rate - I would be quite surprised if this was done.
With your exhaust config, you would want to try the high level exhaust version - however you might also try the low, since the Daytona header is better and probably scavenges better - hard to say what effect the twin stock 1050 cans will have however.
But your main issue has been match between displacement, injector flow rate and a match for the map to that config. Regardless of exhaust one of those should be pretty close.

...Would it be worthwhile changing the injectors to the T595 type? ...
T595 are the same as what you have
IF you decide to change, you want 955 fuel Rail & Injectors from 99-01 S3/Daytona or Sprint*
(I'm not sure if the later injectors fit the older rail, so may as well swap all)

* The fuel rail itself is same even for the 02 -04 955 bikes - however you must get the injectors specific to the 99-01 models listed

You don't necessarily HAVE to change them, but it would certainly make things simpler.

I would expect your new modular pump should be fine as is designed to be a single line pump with integrated regulator.
So just need to get the right combination of map and hardware.
I'm pretty confident that you will have good fueling and MUCH better performance once you get this sorted out - and it won't cost you £550 to do it!!!

Even before you get your cable you can download TuneECU and the respective maps you would be interested and take a look at them - then do some reading to understand what you're looking at.
 
#19 ·
Edit - hang on a minute - I was going by first glance and the description
That picture is NOT of a 99-04 - looks to be a 1050 rail;
Indeed even the 99-01 and 02-04 are different from each other (as are the throttle bodies) so he shouldn't be listing as 99-04 regardless;
But I'm pretty sure it is a 1050 one.

The rail itself might (& I stress 'might') be useful if the injector spacing is the same and the bracket mounting lugs are same, since it has both the single feed AND the quick disconnect hose that your pump uses. The injectors themselves would not be correct.
 
#21 ·
Update

So I've run tuneECM and found the current map. As you thought (DEcosse) the bike has map number 9852. This map is for a 885 with a standard exhaust!

I guess I should go for 9897 or 9898. 97 is MC2000, 955cc and standard exhaust. 98 is MC2000, 955cc and high aftermarket exhaust.
 
#22 ·
Even though you have high level recognize you have twins and also higher flow header; the low is going to be the least restrictive so I would suspect that might be best - i doubt if you would want std but you should try all three
Note also you will have to edit the injector flow value if you keep the 885 fuel rail
Worth trying to see how that works before you buy fuel rail and injectors
 
#24 ·
Hopefully this will sort it and also hopefully no damage. I don't think its done more than 35 miles since the issues began. I've bought the new injectors so will fit them when they arrive. until then I'll try the other maps.

I guess the flow rate until then should be 308.8.

Thanks again for all your help, you've been amazing.

I'll post the results as I get them.
 
#25 ·
Ok so I've loaded the 9899 map (low exhaust). The bike won't idle now but i think that's just down down to the tick-over. The bike seems to rev ok but the exhaust gas looks quite grey in colour, admittedly this is the first time its run for a few days.

Any advice before I move on?
 
#27 ·
A couple of quick questions
1) Did you Reset the TPS? (from the ECU menu)
2) did it start to idle properly when it warmed up
3) If you just held the throttle open a smidge did it idle properly?
4) Do you have any error codes? (and if you clear them do any come come back)

The idle speed control should be automatic so there should be nothing to 'adjust' there.
But we want to be sure the idle speed control is actually working (with just ignition on, there is a 'test' for that in the tests page) .

There is also an Idle Fuel Trim adjust setting which is manual fuel trim for the idle - best not to mess with that just yet. At least not until you install the later injectors. (note this setting should not in itself change the idle speed, only whether it is rich or lean)
 
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