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Cracked block, swapping motor options?

3K views 16 replies 5 participants last post by  DEcosse 
#1 ·
2003 955i speed triple

Cracked block.

What year range for a motor that will drop in directly without any modification?

What would need to be changed to put in a 1050, and is the power gain, worth the effort?
 
#3 ·
Frame is the same
You can certainly physically put in a 1050 motor:
There is no Sagem map available for the 1050 engine, but I suppose you could develop one if you pay for the dyno time
The Idle control system completely different so would need to adapt the Sagem config.
The 'plug n play' process would be to also swap Harness, ECU, Throttle Bodies, clocks - not trivial and not cheap.
Simpler option is just to stick within the same generation
Speed Triple or Sprint or Daytona
Daytona will give you nice boost in power - you actually get more power from a Daytona 955 than a 1050 S3 and is just a bolt-in/remap.
(you would be best to use the Daytona headers which are tuned for the higher rpm power but S3 will fit - if you change the headers you would also have to change the exhaust can)
 
#7 ·
I think I have just successfully put a 1050 (07 speed) into a 2002 955i speed triple bike. ....
"Putting it in" is straight forward enough - what are you doing about fuel mapping?
And Idle control - using the 955 IACV system?

You probably want about 10% fuel increase across the board, just to accommodate the displacement difference, as a starting point
 
#8 ·
Yes. I havent got to that point yet.
I have used a 1050 engine.
Kept the 955i airbox, throttle body, fuel injectors and rail, IAC, ecu.
Initially it would not even fire at all. Swapped the old magneto flywheel in and started perfectly. Idles perfectly.
 
#11 ·
It's not going to learn to make up for that difference in displacement
O2 sensor is only used for idle and just off-idle range.
Just start by putting a blanket 10% increase across the board using the Trim Table in a map using TuneECU and re-load the new saved map.
That is at least a starting point
Recognize you are much safer being 'Rich' than 'Lean'.

You can't really tell much just because it starts and idles with no load on the engine.
O2 sensor is not even in play when engine is cold and only kicks in above 85C on the coolant temp.

Do you have actual plan on how you will tune it properly?
No offense intended whatsoever, but it appears you haven't really given much consideration to this?
 
#12 ·
The reason I am at this point is my crank shaft sheared. I had a 1050 engine left over from a different project so I thought.... why not. The engine owes me nothing. I searched multiple forums and there is plenty of bad advice out there.
I have stripped engines before down to spliting crank cases open and put back together but no experience with tuning.
If I got it running then I thought getting it tuned would be the easy bit. No I dont know how or where yet....
 
#13 ·
I think it's a great idea and you have already done well in addressing the hardware differences - especially with the flywheel rotor. :thumb
It's a great start.
I just didn't want you to underestimate what might be involved in the fueling aspect.

Just from simple math - if you want to achieve let's say an Air to Fuel Ratio of 14.7:1
The std Fuel Table is designed for a cylinder that has 955/3 cc displacement.
If you now increase that displacement by 10%, that means you have 10% more air being pulled into the cylinder by the 1050's cylinder;
so in order to preserve that same 14.7 ratio, since you increase the numerator by 10%, you must also increase the denominator by 10%.

i.e
Value X/Value Y = 14.7
so 1.1X/Y = 14.7*1.1 (i.e. that would be 16.2 which is LEAN)
1.1X/1.1Y =14.7
i.e you increase the fueling by 10% to get the same resultant A/F

It doesn't really matter what value of X* is in the table (or for that matter, what value of AR is in its table) - fact remains that the displacement increasing by 10% points to a 10% corresponding requirement for fuel
Now - that's very simplistic! But at least a better starting point than you have with the std 955 Fuel Map.

* Value 'X' in the Fuel Map is actually an Air Mass value - the Fuel required is derived from the A/F table value and this number (offset by whatever other trims might be in play for Atmospheric Pressure or Temperature etc)

Where are you located?
A couple of options are to either
a) get it dyno'd (by a tuner familiar with TuneECU - if you go to most 'general' dyno shop they will sell you a Power Commander and tune to that)
b) Buy a Wideband O2 setup and do it yourself (but you need understand more about it & learn the process)

You really can't 'wing' this, it absolutely needs real data from a WideBand, whether on the dyno or on-board system.
 
#15 ·
With your config I would recommend you get a Wideband kit regardless, even if someone tunes it.
These guys - http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php - have some of the best value wideband kits out there
They have add-on modules for on-board data storage etc
Something based on an LC2 would be the best option.
The LM2 is popular but that is really a 'bench' tool - I think a permanent install makes more sense.

These guys are actually in Oz - http://wbo2.com
I have this one - http://wbo2.com/2c0/default.htm - with the LX1 display - http://wbo2.com/lx1/default.htm
It's actually a nice compact system for a bike, but the biggest problem is the support and the software is just not right
I've had my system for about 5 years and got tired asking them to fix some of the bugs - the display configuration program for example
It is also 'noisy' and the display 'wanders'
If they got these things sorted out, it would be the 'perfect' fit for a bike
(the Innovate systems don't have the 'ideal' display for a bike, but otherwise look great)

For Tuning you need three pieces of data:
the actual A/F (from the Wideband)
The Engine RPM
The Throttle Position
So when logging, you need to have all that data being stored so you can reference what is going on.

A simple LC2/DB gauge will give you instant visual feedback if you are in 'problem' area - but you need to transpose that against the Throttle Position and engine RPM in order to be able to apply it into the map.
So you need other accessories (like the SSI-4)
Then add the PL1 and you have everything you need to start logging and tuning!

I have no knowledge of how good these are, but has everything in one box to log what you need (a visual display would be optional)
- http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO4.html
 
#16 ·
How bad is the crack? Are you referring to the cylinder or the engine cases? I've had aluminum and magnesium engine cases welded before. I disassembled the engines and took the damaged case half to a very experienced aerospace welder. In both cases the weld repair worked well.
 
#17 ·
Here are another couple of wideband options:

Daytona - http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO3.html
This has included in the controller, input for TPS and RPM and built-in data-logging capability.

One of nice features of the Logging Software is the configuration Utility for the TPS



So for example, the 955 TB TPS runs from about 0.6V to 4V;
Enter those values in the configurator as equivalent to 0-100% and you get the proper throttle opening.

Then from the data log software, you can get an AFR analysis in similar configuration to the ECU map table



And even a % change graph to how much change you need to make your target A/F



Very nice - makes the tuning much easier!

Very simple display available (although not absolutely necessary for tuning - it is nice to see real-time what is going on)

This system runs about $438 plus ~$80 for a simple AFR gauge from VEI
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Then these options from Zeitronix - http://www.zeitronix.com/order/order.htm

The ZT2 + ZR1 gauge looks to be the best option here
The ZR1 is a really nice slimline gauge, nice for motorcycle - or there are other options available.

Has a nice option to order with a 'short' harness for Motorcycle application

This kit also has TPS and RPM inputs and includes data-logging capability
If you want on-board storage, you can add the Black Box DataLogger - http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/BlackBoxDataLogger/BlackBoxDataLogger.shtml

They have their own DataLogging Software
Or you can also use this with WinLog - http://www.devtechnics.com/winlog.htm

WinLog also has a very similar Graph View output similar to the system employed by the Daytona software - so again, very good tool for adjusting the Triumph Table.

Price on this system is going to be $379 for the controller plus the ZR1 gauge
Add $99 for the on-board logging memory/controller

_________________________________________________________________________________

Please note that I have no personal experience of either of these devices - just a 'on-paper' review of their capabilities
 
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