Triumphrat

Eldercanuck · 04-08-2006

There has been some question lately as to whether the KN-191 oil filter is a properly fitting replacement for the Triumph OEM filter (particularly on the 05/06 S3). Being as I acquired a number of the K&N filters before I became aware of this debate, I thought that I'd better find out for myself lest I be forced to rue the decision on a road in the middle of nowhere.

So, the first thing that I did was ask around. According to my dealer (not necessarily the best source of info) and Brent from www.newspeed3.com and www.newbonneville.com (on this forum occasionally as "bsmith222"...sorry to implicate you, Brent!), (1) all current Triumph models use the same screw-on oil filter, and (2) this filter has been in use for quite some time. [I don't know if the use of this filter goes back to the beginning of the John Bloor era or not, but the consensus was that it went back at least a decade].

Next, I acquired a Triumph OEM oil filter for my 2005 S3 (Part #T1210444) to compare it to the KN-191 visually (see pics below). Initially, the filters looked to be a different size (the K&N was slightly wider through the body but was the same size at the business end), and the K&N filter felt substantially heavier, but when I took measurements, the differences were less pronounced. The OEM filter uses an 8 hole pattern compared to the 6 larger holes on the K&N. Inside the filters, the holes in the K&N screen are slightly larger and fewer and I couldn't discern the nature of the filter media behind the screens on either filter other than to say that they were different colors.

Measurements provided the following info:
Weight: OEM=174.3g vs K&N=237.0g
Extreme outside diameter: OEM=69mm vs K&N=69mm
Diameter at seal center: OEM=59mm vs K&N=60mm
Diameter at seal inner flange: OEM=57mm vs K&N=56mm
Top of threads to top of seal: OEM=9mm vs K&N=9mm

The difference between the seal measurements appears to be primarily due to the fact that the K&N filter uses a thicker rounded seal than on the OEM. It was difficult to measure from the top of the threads to the top of the seal exactly, but I could not find any measurable difference between the two.

One issue that sprang to mind while reading the below oil filter threads was that of torque settings. Both filters have recommended torque settings of 8 - 10 Nm (5.9 - 7.4 ft/lbs) which in my humble, non-mechanically-talented opinion is too low. The owners manual calls for 25 Nm (18.4 ft/lbs) on page 63 of the 2005 manual (which it prompty contradicts on page 112), and given my own laziness, I have historically set my torquewrench for 20 ft/lbs and tightened both the filter and the drain plug.

As I have not yet discovered any reason why the K&N filter should fit any differently than the OEM, I'm off to do a quick oil and filter change, and compare the fitment of the two filters. I'll report back...I'm sure you're all waiting with baited breath

TriumphRAT Thread: Oil Filter Leak

TriumphRAT Thread: Oil Filters

glapple · 04-08-2006

Excellent post, thank you!

Eldercanuck · 04-08-2006

Finished the oil change a little while ago and noticed the following:

The flat ring-shaped surface on the underside of the oilpan to which the oil filter seal mates is about 8mm wide, so I would assume that any variance in the diameter of a given oil filter seal +/- 1 or 2 mm will matter little.

I spun on the OEM filter and found that it became finger-tight at about a full 3 turns. Trying the K&N filter, I found that it became finger-tight a little after 3 turns. I tightened the K&N filter to owner's manual spec (25Nm), ran the engine, and haven't seen any sign of leakage.

With respect to TrackerOldGuy (see the first thread link in my initial message on this topic), I think he may have gotten a bum KN-191 filter. Something must have been impeding the threads on his filter (he mentioned that he was only able to turn the filter 1.25 turns before it encountered resistance). Given that I was able to turn mine more than 3 revolutions before it became finger tight leads me to believe that his filter had not properly seated against the underside of the oil pan - which would most certainly have caused the rapid oil leak.

I think I can safely say that the KN-191 "fits" the 05/06 S3. As to how it actually performs, I have no idea and likely never will...but at least I'm comfortable that there is a viable alternative to the OEM oil filter.

corners · 04-09-2006

Quote:

On 2006-04-08 21:54, Eldercanuck wrote:
Finished the oil change a little while ago and noticed the following:

The flat ring-shaped surface on the underside of the oilpan to which the oil filter seal mates is about 8mm wide, so I would assume that any variance in the diameter of a given oil filter seal +/- 1 or 2 mm will matter little.

I spun on the OEM filter and found that it became finger-tight at about a full 3 turns. Trying the K&N filter, I found that it became finger-tight a little after 3 turns. I tightened the K&N filter to owner's manual spec (25Nm), ran the engine, and haven't seen any sign of leakage.

With respect to TrackerOldGuy (see the first thread link in my initial message on this topic), I think he may have gotten a bum KN-191 filter. Something must have been impeding the threads on his filter (he mentioned that he was only able to turn the filter 1.25 turns before it encountered resistance). Given that I was able to turn mine more than 3 revolutions before it became finger tight leads me to believe that his filter had not properly seated against the underside of the oil pan - which would most certainly have caused the rapid oil leak.

I think I can safely say that the KN-191 "fits" the 05/06 S3. As to how it actually performs, I have no idea and likely never will...but at least I'm comfortable that there is a viable alternative to the OEM oil filter.

I have run the KN-191 on all 4 of my Triumphs(2000 rs, 03 triple, 04 daytona 955i, 06 triple)

I have never had a problem with the filter, and currently have one on my 06 triple and so far seems fine.

Good luck to you

Martin_R · 04-09-2006

Quote:

On 2006-04-08 18:42, Eldercanuck wrote:
One issue that sprang to mind while reading the below oil filter threads was that of torque settings. Both filters have recommended torque settings of 8 - 10 Nm (5.9 - 7.4 ft/lbs) which in my humble, non-mechanically-talented opinion is too low. The owners manual calls for 25 Nm (18.4 ft/lbs) on page 63 of the 2005 manual (which it prompty contradicts on page 112)

The 10Nm for the filter is right and plenty enough. The 25Nm in the owner's manual is a misprint and should be the torque for the drain plug.

The filter does not need the 25Nm as the sealing surface is rubber, instead of the drain plug where you have to crush the copper washer also. Rubber will compress enough if you just tighten the filter by hand, especially if you follow the shop manual directions and have lubed the rubber ring with fresh oil before mounting.

So if someone's filter if leaking after tightening by hand, my first guess would be that the rubber ring was dry while mounting.

cheapbastard · 04-09-2006

dang dude! thanks for the comparo!

TrackerOldGuy · 04-09-2006

Okay

Geof3 · 04-09-2006

Guys just use the Pure 1 from Purolator and your good to go. The P1 has the highest test filter ratings of all available and tested. They did not test the K&N... I'm not a huge fan of K&N personally. The Pure 1 has been excellent so far. Cheaper too.

FelixLeiter · 04-10-2006

I use one of these toilet paper filters... been around since the 60s and still going strong:

Toilet Paper Filter

FelixLeiter · 04-10-2006

In all seriousness, I use the Triumph filter because my oil change usually only happens 2X per riding season (abbraviated season up here in Canada) and I don't mind spending the extra on that infrequent of a basis. I may be naive but I trust that Triumph knows best... if it was Kia or Dawoo that made the S3 I might be more wary of their outsourced parts but despite the reputation of other Brit vehicle manufacturers throughout history Bloor seems to be doing an acceptable job.