Triumphrat

dkreidel · 02-11-2009, 12:30 AM

I've been riding for 44 years, and have more than 300,000 miles of road riding and 5 seasons of 1/2 mile flat track racing 500 cc Triumphs and 250 cc Yamahas - I know how to ride a bike. Today my neighbor, who just bought a Harley and has spent all of 6 hours in a MSF course (new, never ever rider) came over and was asking about "counter steering" and how to turn the bike.
I've never heard of this, and when he told me he was told to pull on the right end of the handlebar to turn left I couldn't figure out what the hell he was talking about.

What am I missing? I can't have been doing this wrong for soooo long....

Dick

teachnsurf · 02-11-2009, 12:33 AM

High speed sweeper to the left - you might be countersteering. Slight pull back on right side bar + lean to the left.

Tight u-turn to the left - not countersteering.

CommandoRdster · 02-11-2009, 01:09 AM

You're already doing it,you just never noticed.We always said"Push left,go left.Push right,go right".

Next time you go for a ride,notice how you initiate a left turn.Probably with a little push forward on the left bar,or a slight tug on the right bar,or both.This automatically causes the bike to lean to the left,and,of course,when it's leaned that way,it goes that way.

Needless to say,it does the same thing on right corners

.

This is the way a motorcycle is turned at anything over walking speed.Trust me,you've been doing it all your life.

Note: Countersteering does not work with three wheelers,or sidecar outfits.

Cheers!
Bruce

Haggis · 02-11-2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkreidel

he told me he was told to pull on the right end of the handlebar to turn left
Dick

You've probably been doing it.

Surely it should be push left to go left not pull on right to go left?
I only pull on right to go left if I'm really cranking over, and already pushing left quite hard.

saphena · 02-11-2009, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis95

You've probably been doing it.

Surely it should be push left to go left not pull on right to go left?
I only pull on right to go left if I'm really cranking over, and already pushing left quite hard.

The simple mantra is indeed "push left to go left" but in practice I usually find myself pulling right to go left weird as that sounds when you say it out loud. It doesn't really matter as the effect is identical.

I'm an old fart who's very new to riding, nearly three years now, and I've found that very few people who learned in their teens have any conscious knowledge of countersteering (and often deny there is such a thing) but they've all been doing it for 20-40 years effortlessly.

Most recently I discussed CS with my brother-in-law who's been riding for 30+ years. He was adamant that the mechanism I was describing didn't exist and he'd fall of his bike if he did as I said. Two weeks later I got a phone call from him to say that he'd tried it and was surprised to find that it worked exactly as described.

Tbirdnz · 02-11-2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphena

.............
I'm an old fart who's very new to riding, nearly three years now, and I've found that very few people who learned in their teens have any conscious knowledge of countersteering (and often deny there is such a thing) but they've all been doing it for 20-40 years effortlessly.

................

I think this is true, I've owned my own bike since I was 15, although I rode earlier and passed my road test at 15 years of age when counter-steering was an unknown buzzword. However when I found out about it I realised I was already doing this. I believe it is essential to be aware of it to help your cornering. Everyone turning a corner is doing it whether they realise it or not but being aware of it and using it deliberately will help you corner faster, safer and with more confidence.

Look at the sticky threads on this forum for counter-steering tips.

-----------
Ride on !

ohiorider · 02-11-2009, 06:51 AM

DK - You're already doing it subconsciously, or your bike wouldn't be making the turn. One of the articles I read on countersteering several years ago commented that the 'cruelest thing our parents had done was first put us on a tricycle, then on a bicycle'.

Keith Code and Reg Pridmore (both offer advanced rider training) had an ongoing argument about this a few years ago. Keith has preached countersteering for years, Reg attributes a lot of control to weight shifting. So Keith decided to prepare a 'special' bike. Over top the standard handlebars, he affixed a handlebar that was rigidly attached to the frame, not to the forks. He invited anyone who doubted whether countersteering was real to change hand positions to the rigid bars, then try making a turn on the bike. Guess what ... all the weight transfer a rider could apply barely made the bike begin to turn.

Interesting stuff!

I like Dave Hough's riding articles. He currently supplies safety and riding articles to BMW MOA club mag. I found one of his countersteering articles on the web. Here ya' go.

http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa...lls/RS-cc1.htm

Bob

Speed3 · 02-11-2009, 08:40 AM

I learned the term countersteering while reading a book on road bicycling 15 years ago. Never heard the term before. I had been riding for 20 years at that time. So you have been doing it for 44 years without being conscious of it. Once you apply it knowingly, it makes twisties all the more fun!

dkreidel · 02-11-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphena

Most recently I discussed CS with my brother-in-law who's been riding for 30+ years. He was adamant that the mechanism I was describing didn't exist and he'd fall of his bike if he did as I said. Two weeks later I got a phone call from him to say that he'd tried it and was surprised to find that it worked exactly as described.

Thanks to all. It's nice weather in socal today, so I'll go for a ride and try this countersteering, but sitting in the kitchen it seems as if I would indeed fall of the bike immediately, or crash. Very odd...

Dick

taximan62 · 02-11-2009, 01:00 PM

Although we all do it whether consiously or not that is the only way you can steer a bike at speed. As a Candada Safety Council Motorcycle Instructor (same as the MSF in the US) it is a critical part of our instruction with new riders.

The fact that you do it without realizing it is fine in normal conditions but when you run into circumstances like going into a corner hot, a decreasing radius turn that suprises you or having to swerve to avoid an obstacle it is imperative you know how to countersteer without thinking.

Too many riders in these situations that are not aware of the technique can get themselves in a load of trouble when they suddenly need to avoid something or get their bike to lean more in a curve and revert back to normal steering. The suddenly need more lean and when they try to turn the bars in the direction they want to go and are suprised when the bike goes in the opposite direction.

It needs to be second nature to push left to go left and to push right to go right.

Too many riders still feel the need to lean their bodies to make the bike steer at speed. While this technique will work to a point it won't help in panic situations. It also is much more physically tiring and using countersteering makes for a much more controlled and enjoyable ride. Although leaning the body works one of the main reasons it does is the fact that leaning your body also applies a slight push steer to the bars without you knowing it.

Try this: Sit on a chair and hold your arms out as if you were holding the bars. Lean your body to the left and look at what your left arm does. You will notice that your left arm and hand actually moves forward in the same motion you would if you were to push steer!! The physical act of leaning initiates a push steer without you realizing it.

Next time you ride try just putting input on the bars in the dirction you want the bike to go. Work with it and make it second nature. If you need to tighten up your curve just push more. Then practice swerving around imaginary objects in the road and get good at it. It just may save you arse if you need to avoid an obstacle!