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Hard core jail time

15K views 220 replies 43 participants last post by  spank86 
#1 ·
The Norwegian convicted of the massacre of 77 people last year has said he is being held in "inhumane" conditions.

Anders Behring Breivik complained in a letter to the prison service that his coffee is served cold, he does not have enough butter for his bread, and he is not allowed moisturiser.

In the letter, he complains that the cell is poorly decorated and has no view. "I highly doubt that there are worse detention facilities in Norway," he writes.
Among his other complaints are:

  • the handcuffs he wears when being moved around the prison "are too sharp and "cut in his wrist"
  • the cell is too cold, forcing him to wear three layers of clothes
  • he has to rush his morning shave and brushing of teeth
  • light and television switches are outside the cell, so he has to ask for help to change channel or sleep.
 
#103 ·
IMHO the death penalty is more like bleach than antibiotics, or if it is like antibiotics then we are all bacteria not just the killers.


Using that as an analogy it does exactly the same as antibiotics, removes those that are susceptible to it leaving you with a pool of individuals without the traits that caused death.
 
#113 ·
IMHO the death penalty is more like bleach than antibiotics, or if it is like antibiotics then we are all bacteria not just the killers.

Using that as an analogy it does exactly the same as antibiotics, removes those that are susceptible to it leaving you with a pool of individuals without the traits that caused death.
Are you of the understanding that antibiotics just kill the bad guys?
 
#125 ·
No, they just kill the ones who aren't immune.

In the human race this is analogous to people who don't have a genetic predisposition to not murdering others.
 
#104 ·
When someone makes the decision to do something that would earn them the death penalty they have forfeited any right to my consideration in the same way that someone breaking into my home in the middle of the night forfeits the right to keep breathing.

Unless you're rescuing my unconscious body from a burning building kind of thing you have no business being there and deserve whatever damage I can do to you.

Taking a life, any life is (or should be) a very serious matter. My concern is for the rest of society. What does it do to us to sanction murder? Especially when we acknowledge it can be done in error? It can prevent a recurrence but does it accomplish anything positive for anyone in the society? Sometimes at the time of the execution members of victims families have said it brought them closure but has anyone asked them if they still think or feel that years later?

I am disturbed that we know some executions are done to the innocent but we continue our day to day lives without much comment. We say that a human life is beyond price but we are willing to throw a percentage of these lives away.

We've had more than enough "practice" and we still can't always get it right. Maybe we should stop until we can.
 
#105 ·
I am in favor of the death penalty because if your crime is so heinous that you could never be trusted in society again, I don't want to help pay to keep you alive at a cost of possibly millions per prisoner.

And why do they deserve better treatment than their victims?

If it is known without a doubt the person committed said heinous acts, I don't have a problem with it at all.

I'm not necessarily talking about all murderers. The woman who shot her two sons who were dying of Huntington's and suffering horribly is not the same as a serial killer or mass murderer IMO. It is very unlikely she will ever do it again, and did it out of mercy. A psychopath is always going to do it again (and enjoy it).
 
#107 ·
And why do they deserve better treatment than their victims?
Because we aren't them. It's not about how bad they are, it's about how good we're trying to be.
 
#106 ·
Small hijack.

I read somewhere once that it was the development of language that allowed us to collectively bring about the first death sentence.

If I remember right it went something along the lines of we were a violent tribal group of humanoids ruled by a few select vicious individuals, who were absolutely brutal to the lesser members of the tribe. The development of language allowed the smaller weaker members to organise themselves to such an extent that they were able to, as a group, dispose of the more brutal members.

Over time, the elimination of this violent genetic trait provided a shift in tribal dynamics from a more brutal aspect to one of cooperation.

...it is just a theory, but one I like.


Thank you for indulging me.
You may all now pick up your pitchforks and torches and return to storming the castle and baying for blood.
 
#109 ·
The only caveat I have is that if a murderer is paroled then that board and that state should be held liable and cupable for any crimes ...damage or murders they commit on release. That is criminal and civil accountability.

Then maybe if someone on a parole board feels they deserve release maybe think twice before letting out the door to continue on a crime spree.
 
#110 ·
Well, that's part of the problem: they have to let them out because it costs too much to keep them all in:(

Instead of keeping some of these "humans" on death row for 40 years, that money could probably be better put to use on programs and education for at risk youth or something. Nothing can fix certain murderers, but maybe some of the gang violence murders and assaults would be reduced.
 
#116 ·
Not sure what you mean Lee.

The name anti-biotic is aptly chosen. It kills a portion of all bacteria, helpful AND harmful!
 
#122 ·
I`d hate to be a prison warder or jailer or whatever they call them these days, looking after someone on a "will die in prison" proper life sentence. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Scarey.
 
#131 ·
If we are going to continue the tenuous bacteria analogy, isn't it possible that we will breed a species of Super-criminal, who are not only resistant to the electric chair, but also too small for the naked eye to see? They will flourish in the back of my fridge, and eventually give me an upset stomach when I eat a bit of cheese that has progressed from "Mature" to "Alive"?


Is it possible THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED???
 
#133 ·
I think that would take longer than we have before we're hit by a planet killing meteorite or the sun snuffs out.

Plus there's no mechanism with the electric chair bit, much like you get antibiotic resistant bacteria but not bleach resistant bacteria the chair would need to be less than 100% effective for it to happen.

The justice system however, not being 100% effective will inevitably improve the abilities of criminals to evade capture.

Or it would if we locked them up prior to breeding age, perhaps that's the true reason for all the teen pregnancies we get now??:eek:
 
#134 ·
Actually, you may recall that the electric chair isn't 100% effective. At least the first one certainly wasn't. Took several goes to do the man in.

I think that's why most states with a death penalty have moved to the lethal injection.
 
G
#140 ·
To begin with, I am not an advocate of the chair but your reasons for not wanting to use it are a touch flawed.
The first chair was used in Aug of 1890. Not last year, not 20 years ago. It's history is on wiki.

I could find no other reference to failed electric chair executions. The change to lethal injection came as a result of the public wanting to be more human in killing some one. Same reason the guillotine was dropped. Both did a great job but made us feel no better than it did the person we did in. Just a small point in a senseless thread.
 
#135 ·
Well, every person put in it dies, wether by the chair or by other means, they don't go on to create a pool of electric resistant humans so from a genetic point of view the process is 100% effective.
 
#136 ·
Only because they haven't found the electric-chair resistant strain of criminal yet. Because they are too small.
 
#141 ·
I understood there were a variety of reasons for doing away with the chair. Mostly they boil down to inhumane punishment I suppose, but part of that was that it didn't always kill on the first go; it ultimately did the job, but might take more than one attempt.

Regardless, I didn't mean to open a debate about whether it is a good tool for the job, only to point out that it sometimes doesn't kill immediately, and that is is a pretty gruesome way to go.
 
#142 ·
As I recall the story of the electric chair is quite fascinating (if gruesome).

It was developed by Edison as part of a big PR campaign against George Westinghouse over electricity services.

Edison had massive patent income from his Direct Current (DC) electric power generation system that was used in the US. DC however really sucks when trying to distribute it any distance unlike Alternating Current (AC). AC systems were developed and widely used in Europe.

Westinghouse realised AC was a better system and figured if he could introduce it in the US he could make a motza.

He invested heavily in it. Edison however was not going to relinquish his cash cow easily. Much money was at stake.

Edison then started a massive PR scare campaign against AC. He figured if he could make people fearful of AC he would stop its adoption. He did all sorts of things to paint AC as highly dangerous unlike his safe and simple, safe, pure US made DC electricity.

He publicly electrocuted animals (including a circus elephant) using AC to show how nasty the stuff was.

One of the stunts was the building an electric chair (that ran on this dangerous AC electricity) for a New York gaol to use to execute a prisoner. This was the first electric chair. It was meant to highlight how lethal AC was.

As someone else here said it didn't work very well. The first execution apparently was horrific - it required several goes before the prisoner was finally killed, each one only serving to torture him.

The quote from Westinghouse was along the lines of 'it would've more humane to have used an axe'

In the end Edison lost anyway. AC was the better system and became the standard.
What is weirder - apparently Edison actually opposed the death penalty. Weird stuff.
 
#143 ·
I don't really think it matters HOW the government decides to kill people, it's all pretty sickening. Beat them to death with a broom handle, gas them, electrocute them, it's all the same, it's the government deciding who gets to live and who gets to die.
 
#145 ·
Actually it's the jury who decides the punishment during a separate phase of the trial if/when guilt is established. The death penalty is only an available option; another new one that's more palatable to the jurors, is 'life without the possibility of parole'.

While it's never a pleasant prospect to put another to death; it's 100% insurance against recidivism. Other nations have their own policies, and as such we have to respect them. If the Norwegians turn him loose, and he kills again; they will have brought it on their own society.

A point of interest, 'Old Sparky' (our electric chair has it's own name) ;) is now a museum piece. Lethal injection took it's place, and it is far more humane than the sort of death that the victims usually suffer. ....James.
 
#144 ·
Sounds a bit like the NHS demonic.


Only from the other angle.
 
#148 · (Edited)
Jonkster, you're right about Edison creating the chair and about his motives behind it, but Westinghouse was only the money man. AC electricity as we know it was the brainchild of Nicola Tesla. He actually worked for Edison and tried to get him interested in the AC system but Edison shunned it as he was already heavily invested in his DC system. Tesla was one of his leading engineers and managed the installation of Edison's first power plant in NYC at the completion of which he was due a large bonus. When he went to Edison for his check, having done the job well, Edison stiffed him saying 'you have a lot to learn about business in America' or something to that effect. (Tesla was an emigrant from Serbia)

Shortly after, Tesla left Edison and resorted to digging ditches until he eventually hooked up with Westinghouse who provided the means to fund his AC dreams. This is when Edison's 'theatrics' took place. Eventually Tesla/Westinghouse won the bid to provide power to the Chicago world's fair which was the tipping point where the world began to see AC power as the better alternative. That led directly to them winning the contract for the power plant at Niagra, and from there DC never stood a chance.

I'm something of a Tesla fan; I feel he was one of the greatest minds of the century but is often overlooked in history.

I also think Edison was a bit of a d!ck.
 
#150 ·
Whooa There '73T140, there's some hard core questions there and they could take things any-which-way. To think I nearly didn't check this thread again.

In my belief system T140, every single human should have the right to pursue their own course of life. They still have to fit into society and remain social and responsible, but they should be completely free otherwise. I understand that adhering to social rules AND being completely free may seem contradictory, but I have thought about it and I don't think the two need to be contradictory, though I am preaching from the idealistic position where we're all looking out for each other's interests and no-one is incline to put their hand in the till or have any desire to have controlling power over anyone else.

As far as unfair impositions, I don't like paying taxes that get wasted or lost, I don't like having to kowtow to political correctness; you can see how long this list is going to get. Essentially I am anti-Big and anti-Global, they are the forces that I feel are eating into my freedom, they are the monsters that I feel press their might upon me. But in the grand scheme of things, in comparison to many other countries, we Australians get to live a pretty free existence. Every decade though the walls move in a little closer.

Julian Assange is one of my Heroes. He's paid a massive price regarding his freedom, he may yet pay the ultimate price if America gets their hands on him, all in efforts to minimise the bullschit fed to us, used to manipulate our thoughts and actions.
 
#154 ·
If the representation you've given of the book is at all accurate (sterilize family for crimes of an individual) I don't need to. It's idiotic and simply shows no understanding of psychology or justice. The idea is to remove violence by eliminating the genes from the population, but that's mindless hippy pablum - violence isn't caused purely by genetics, nor can you remove it by forcible sterilization. Violent people would continue on by either not getting caught or simply not committing a crime serious enough to get sentenced with your forced sterilization program. You can't rely on people avoiding it for their families' sake, as if they were empathetic, rational or intelligent actors. Violent criminals are typically none of those...
 
#158 ·
If the representation you've given of the book is at all accurate (sterilize family for crimes of an individual) I don't need to. It's idiotic and simply shows no understanding ........
The problem with your idea is that it doesn't actually the into account the way genetics works......
^Exactly. Genetics is a poor predictor on its own.....
Do you read or just wait to post?

Not my idea. An idea I found interesting. That idea has a context. The rest of the material submitted by the author.

It would be nice to discuss it with you but that's difficult to do if you don't know what you're talking about.

If you want to read that material I'd be happy to discuss the idea pros or cons but if you don't then you're just flaming and post-whoring so I won't respond to any more of your comments.
 
#159 ·
Your idea that the book is anything other than a flight of fancy of course.

Removing the specific individual has some small benefit on a genetic level, set against a small possibility of detriment. Removing a larger percentage swings the ration badly in favour of detriment.
 
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