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Hard core jail time

15K views 220 replies 43 participants last post by  spank86 
#1 ·
The Norwegian convicted of the massacre of 77 people last year has said he is being held in "inhumane" conditions.

Anders Behring Breivik complained in a letter to the prison service that his coffee is served cold, he does not have enough butter for his bread, and he is not allowed moisturiser.

In the letter, he complains that the cell is poorly decorated and has no view. "I highly doubt that there are worse detention facilities in Norway," he writes.
Among his other complaints are:

  • the handcuffs he wears when being moved around the prison "are too sharp and "cut in his wrist"
  • the cell is too cold, forcing him to wear three layers of clothes
  • he has to rush his morning shave and brushing of teeth
  • light and television switches are outside the cell, so he has to ask for help to change channel or sleep.
 
#42 ·
Unless religion is a reason for persecution within the state where the immigrant is attempting to escape from (in which case asylum may be offered where proof of persecution is clear), immigration (into Europe) is driven by economic desire. Unless it is illegal immigration. In Australia and Europe the larger proportion of the media seem more concerned with illegal immigration and the "results" of it rather than accepting that immigrants have legitimate reasons for migrating to other countries. That perception skews the debate about immigration.

If we enter the debate about immigration as a reiligious "problem" we enter a debate that usually gets to cultural difference - currently that will be to do with "muslims": Before it was blacks and the Irish. Muslims are the enemy because we are at "war" in their countries for all of our incisive and complicated reasons.

No place in the world has a pure population unsullied by immigrants, unless someone can point out where it is?

There's no telling how many murders have not happened because the death penalty terrifies those reasoned enough to consider it as a consequence of their actions. I do not believe the death penalty to be justified. I do not know how many murders have been prevented by the thought of life long imprisonment.

Breivik didn't want to be judged insane as that would undermine his perceived and self justifying legitimacy for his actions. McVeigh needed the same thing and didn't use it as a defence for murdering dozens of people. Both want(ed) their ideas seen as rational ideas that drove them to their actions.

Breivik deserves to suffer every day for the rest of his life.
 
#76 ·
Breivik deserves to suffer every day for the rest of his life.

To all you Old Testament types, an eye for an eye an' all that schit;

Why do you want this weirdo to suffer?

To anyone who wants him to suffer, what does it achieve for you?
 
#44 ·
Well, we were amused by the ridiculous whining of a mass murderer. It's something to ignore, I say let him rot. History tells us these types will always be around to ruin our peace. I put this guy in a different class than war criminals in that it was a isolated singular act of hatred. By the way, how ever much i dislike Dubya's business in Iraq, he was never charged or found guilty of war crimes.
 
#50 ·
Dog on the flip flop letting a sub species murdering arse hole live is just a waste of air and space. We will have to agree to disagree...I have worked all my adult life helping people from EMS to the hospital...I even was a SP in the service. Like many others I have been a productive citizen and I show empathy if it is deserved but for this ...nope not a bit.
 
#51 · (Edited)
Pageclaim!

See that is one difference between us Lee, our stance over the death penalty. I know you believe in it and I understand and accept that. I don't advocate it for a lot of reasons, one of which I believe it makes me no better than the person I would want to kill.

Plus why the fcuk would you let a politician have the power of life and death over you?


Just a small part of my personal belief system.
 
#58 ·
Plus why the fcuk would you let a politician have the power of life and death over you?
I am going to go back and revisit this statement, because over the hundred odd miles I have travelled since I made it, it has been gnawing away at the back of my brain.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people who advocate getting government the hell out of their lives would willingly let the same government hold the power of life or death over them. These people bleat about how they cannot trust the government with the most simple of tasks yet give them ultimate power over themselves.

I find this both intriguing and disturbing.


Can someone explain this to me?
 
#52 ·
hard questions here

Here are some questions I really struggle with.

A brain injury can dramatically change a person's personality. So suppose a bloke who is a decent, honourable member of society suffers a stroke or physical impact or tumour etc with the result it damages certain parts of the brain and dramatically changes his personality. Suppose it turns him into a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant (such things sadly do happen). Suppose he then does a terrible crime.

Is it his fault he is this way? He can never regain his former decency. Do we punish him? Why?
Do we try and make him suffer? Should we be happy if he suffers?
Should we shoot him?

Should we feel any sympathy for him or the circumstances that led to this? Should we be interested in finding why his brain acted the way it did?

Now suppose a child is born with a damaged brain (suppose a brain bleed during traumatic delivery) that makes them a psychopath and coward and sexual deviant. They grow up and commit awful crimes as a result. They have no say in the matter, probably they are not even capable of realising how unacceptable they are to most people. How do we treat this person?

Are psychopaths actually brain damaged individuals rather than people who have chosen to be that way? If so why do we want to make them suffer for their crimes if the reason they act the way they do is something they cannot change, understand or control?

Please do not jump in and say I am trying to minimise a crime or think such behaviour is acceptable or that I feel compassion for criminal behaviour. I don't. Understanding why someone acts the way they do doesn't make their actions acceptable.

I seriously struggle with these issues. I have seen people's personalities change in awful ways as a result of brain damage. I hate how they became but... they didn't choose to be like that so I felt conflicted when trying to be angry at the person.
 
#53 ·
Well, his 21 year sentence will go by relatively quickly (if he can endure this abuse) and he'll be available for interviews, private meetings, etc. when he gets out. I'm sure there will be plenty of people waiting at the gates to speak with him.

At least in my state, a no death penalty one, he could have gotten life with no possibility of parole.
 
#55 ·
I would say life imprisonment in solitary confinement would be a punishment far worse than death. That's why I'm in favor of that rather than the death penalty, aside from the possibility of executing an innocent man. Put him in a padded room and feed him twice a day (something bland, just enough that he remains healthy).

He'd go insane inside of a month. A lifetime and he'd be a veritable vegetable.
 
#60 ·
John ...Dennis..in our country the libs tend to fight the death penalty and then they may even get out years later....I can site numerous cases where very bad people get out and kill again. One dirt bag killed two police officers in NJ...got the death penalty it was over turned and got life he was released five years ago...He almost did a guest speaker at Rutgers university until there was an outcry...He killed two police officers with a partners fortunately his partner was found in NYC and was given mutliple rounds of double OO buck...they used a towel to pick him up:D Many of us do not care about a roiugh life ...brain injury...bad treatment...I just want them terminated to prevent future occurances...jmop...
I read about six books on teh death penalty..and came to the opinion that most states do not use it right...except texas and florida. like I said earlier tag them as a pedaphile and stick them in general population...it will be taken care of....
 
#63 ·
Many of us do not care about a rough life ...brain injury...bad treatment...I just want them terminated to prevent future occurrences...jmop...
Lee I don't know how to say this without sounding trite or like an ass, but I say it with the greatest sincerity. I hope you never end up in the circumstances where you have a massive brain fart.

After meeting you, and talking to you, I don't think it would happen, but...
Be careful what you wish for.
 
#64 ·
Dog you are entitled to your opinion but the fact is many of us have not tolerance for dirt bags who kill and rape......as far as the brain fart ...I have no freaking idea what the fcuk your point was......:)

Triumph no need to be calling people narrow minded just because they don't agree.....
 
#67 ·
John FYI over the years I have never struck someone first ...I avoid a fight as much as possible. I have been hit ...cheap shotted..and I have never lost a fight. I would prefer to walk away.

I do not want to stab...shoot or hurt anyone I just do not want them knocking in my door one day hurting my family.
Unfortunately in this country 'murderers get life and are out after 10..20 years... The death penalty does not work ..appeals ...more cost to trial and house a death row inmate. Years of appeals delay it for years.
My comments are more out of frustration.. but I hope to god if ever one of these dirt bags attacks my family I have the presence of mind to shoot straight and empty the magazine....I understand what you are saying and if they could be put away with a guarantee they would never get out I would be alright with that....
More importantly when are you coming back ....:D I still think about that day of riding and wish I had a Rocket with me or the Tiger to make it even more enjoyable...that goes for you to Dennis...no slight intended on the previous comments...I am in a bit of pain and discomfort right now ...and I have not been on my bike for almost four weeks ...except to drop it off for the 30,000 mile check up...just got the shoulder taped and took some Ibiuprofen I am feeling a bit better....next time either of you come back you have a place in Roswell NM...
 
#70 ·
More importantly when are you coming back ....:D I still think about that day of riding and wish I had a Rocket with me or the Tiger to make it even more enjoyable
that was a fun ride :D


Unfortunately money reserves are currently are exhausted after my last adventure so until I finally make my great revolutionary (and lucrative manufacturing rights) invention (this my wife's current plan for me) it may be a while I am afraid :(

I am in a bit of pain and discomfort right now ...and I have not been on my bike for almost four weeks ...except to drop it off for the 30,000 mile check up...just got the shoulder taped and took some Ibiuprofen I am feeling a bit better
Sorry to hear that, I heard you were not running so well in the shoulder department. A real bugger. What is prognosis? You off work?

Pardon the thread hijack - carry on the rest of you :D
 
#77 ·
Bo I would be quite happy as I posted several pages ago for him not to suffer and for us not to put up with him.

2 x .22 back of head and it's all over, I have no personal experience of whether he would suffer or not but my guess is not.

I would imagine that if the family members of those whom he murdered had any say, probably quite a lot would prefer the death penalty for his crimes.

I have no interest in "an eye for an eye".

The man is a murderer of 77 people to me that does not deserve a life time in a prison being a burden on society, possibly writing a book about it etc etc.

that is my :2cents
 
#78 ·
Can we elaborate on suffer? No home box...no twinkies (cream filled pastries with a 100 year shelf life) ..... :D Or are we talking a ball pean hammer to the metatarsals.....I mean we need to clarify.. but for a man who killed 77 people I don't think anyone will be turning the other cheek...nor will anyone be overly concerned..perhaps he will find budha, jesus, mohammed or what ever in prison...they always seem to gravitate that way when it helps them...
 
#97 ·
Can we elaborate on suffer?
..create an abyss denying any contact period..
Yes. I think an abyss of isolation pretty much covers it. Short of torturing the demented prick, I'd say isolation is about as much sufferance you could dish up.

Normally, I argue with qualifiers like "IMO" or "this is my opinion I am not trying to get you to change yours". In this case I'd like to change your opinion, I'd like everyone to be opposed to killing; but I am not banking on it. I'd like you to know that I am not posting try and stir you up either, I hope I am not insulting you with my opinions.

What if, just a suggestion, but what if all the increases in social pressure and turmoil from poorer quality nutrition to poorly understood medication to increased levels of environmental toxins or even the sub-wooffing coming from wind farms - what if they are, in combination, bending and distorting peoples' heads and producing nutjobs? A sort of environmental lobotomy, wouldn't you want to know about it or at least try to find out?

Another what if. In other forms of life, say bees f'rinstance, if you take away a bee that plays a particular role - even the queen - another bee morphs into that role. What if, our society has x-number of psychopaths and every time you destroy one it causes an ordinary person to become a psycho by some weird natural law we have not nutted out yet?

My arguments are not great or very convincing I know, but I am trying to make the point that attempting to eradicate something is never as easy as we think it is and we usually make a pig's breakfast while doing it. The only NASTY, UNWANTED natural phenomenon that I know we've managed to eradicate is small pox. Please remind me if I missed any.
 
#79 ·
Ultimately, Anders Brevik committed the crime in Norway, so it is (luckily for him) not up to us, how he gets punished. It is my understanding that he will serve an absolute maximum of 21 years, he may even possibly serve less. He will be my age when he gets out and will most likely have more than half his life in front of him. He will have no money worries thanks to his cult celebrity status and the books that he is busy writing.

I think he will go down in history as the world`s most lightly punished mass murderer and it is Ironic that Norway`s extremely liberal system which he hates so much, will benefit him so greatly.
 
#80 ·
Lee, you might find it interesting to note that California, the flagship state of the liberals, just voted to keep it's death penalty.

Now personally, I voted to get rid of it. But not on any moral grounds, more as a practical matter. Of the 400-odd convicts we have on death row, almost none of them will ever actually get the needle. I think we've only actually executed a handful since reinstating the penalty around '79 or so (?). Most end up dieing of natural causes in prison anyway, and it is estimated we would save over $100,000,000 a year if we simply changed them all to life without parole.

Further, I really question whether anybody considering committing first degree murder thinks 'well, I would but for the death penalty...'. I doubt very much they give the consequences of their actions much thought at all.

And yes, there is the odd case where a man is found guilty only to be exonerated many years later and set free. Rare, certainly, but not unheard of.

Further, I would think a life of solitary confinement with nope hope of parole may well be worse than death. Certainly it would be for some.

The only real plus I can see would be in a DA using the threat of the death penalty to extract confession or plea bargain though again I don't know how often that sort of thing really takes place.

So while I don't have a moral objection to the death penalty, I'm not really sure it makes sense when considered purely on a logical level instead of an emotional one where revenge is a strong motive.

All that aside, that the killer in this particular case got such a light sentence is utterly incomprehensible.

As for W and any war crimes......it's best I not go down that path. That way lies banishment!
 
#86 ·
Lee, you might find it interesting to note that California, the flagship state of the liberals, just voted to keep it's death penalty.

Now personally, I voted to get rid of it. But not on any moral grounds, more as a practical matter. Of the 400-odd convicts we have on death row, almost none of them will ever actually get the needle. I think we've only actually executed a handful since reinstating the penalty around '79 or so (?). Most end up dieing of natural causes in prison anyway, and it is estimated we would save over $100,000,000 a year if we simply changed them all to life without parole.

Further, I really question whether anybody considering committing first degree murder thinks 'well, I would but for the death penalty...'. I doubt very much they give the consequences of their actions much thought at all.

And yes, there is the odd case where a man is found guilty only to be exonerated many years later and set free. Rare, certainly, but not unheard of.

Further, I would think a life of solitary confinement with nope hope of parole may well be worse than death. Certainly it would be for some.

The only real plus I can see would be in a DA using the threat of the death penalty to extract confession or plea bargain though again I don't know how often that sort of thing really takes place.

So while I don't have a moral objection to the death penalty, I'm not really sure it makes sense when considered purely on a logical level instead of an emotional one where revenge is a strong motive.

All that aside, that the killer in this particular case got such a light sentence is utterly incomprehensible.

As for W and any war crimes......it's best I not go down that path. That way lies banishment!
Don I did an assignment for three months in Cal. back in 98..... that is when i read the books pro and con for the death penalty. Except for a few states it does not work here ....they sit for years appealing on death row furthermore it costs a ton of money to go to trial and to house these miscreants. I dont have an answer on how tofix it. Perhaps we need to look to Texas on how to streamline and expediate it...but when someone is given a death penalty and it is commuted to life ...how the heck can we allow such an animal out after a few decades...it is like we are saying okay forgive and forget...

I am also in favor of a heinous crime statute that ensures someone never ever gets out...case in point Singeltary...he was the guy who raped and chopped off a young girls arms and dumped her in a drainage ditch. She managed to crawl out and a passing motorist got her help...she survived. California let this guy out in less then fifteen years. Paroled. Later he moves to Florida and kills a prostitute...florida made sure he would not be a repeat offender there and terminated his arse....
 
#81 ·
I prefer life without parole to the death penalty for one simple reason. This clear cut incident aside most of the time there's a level of doubt in criminal cases, the law gets things wrong from time to time. In the UK we would have probably executed the Guildford four and Birmingham six, ten innocent men could have died there alone.

I'd prefer to incarcerate the guilty for life than kill an innocent by accident. It's also worth noting that when a criminal commits suicide there's often a lot of complaints that he 'escaped punishment' death is the easy way out for lots of these people (again brevik not withstanding, he obviously feels no remorse).
 
#83 ·
I go back and forth about whether or not I am for the death penalty. It has nothing to do with the morality if taking someone's life, or who gets to decide.
My concern is more about the judicial system and the way it gets implemented. It's a fact innocent people get convicted all the time. And there is enough doubt in my mind that race is an issue in who gets the death penalty.
For years I was proud of my home state of Texas being so quick to enforce the death penalty, now I'm not so sure...




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G
#85 ·
I have to get my communication skills to work here.

We have veered off onto death penalty, prison time, general punishment themes for common criminals and murderers.

This man in Norway is not that common criminal/murderer. Like McVeigh, here in the states, these men had political cause. Not religious, psychopathic or monetary reasons to kill. Political reasons are just as serious and real as the rest but can be looked at in a non medical way to understand why they did it.

Every country in the free world has citizens who are so opposed to their current form of government they could be mass killers at any moment the right circumstance arises. They believe they are the liberators of their fellow citizens.

To treat them as common, run of the mill loonies is as short sighted as the crime they committed.

In America, the McVeigh trial and execution drove any number of militias under ground, forced edge hangers on to drop out of same and allowed authorities to come to grips with the movement.

The Norwegian fellow is in the same boat. To treat him as just a mental loony and lock him up is the same as burying your head in the sand. Do they really believe he is the only right wing nationalist in Norway?

These killers and their movements have caused wars, pestilence and endless suffering around the world for centuries. Treat them as common crooks and their movements will strike you again and another 77 children will be killed for politics.

Okay, go back to screaming for his head on a platter.
 
#88 ·
Having read all this. I'd have to say I agree with those who suggested that executing people is not easy and those who call for it would likely as not be able to actually carry out the deed.

I question the comment I read to the effect that he only did what others are thinking. Murdering other people's children!!!!!!! FFS!

Personally I think the best punishment for this guy would be the one he has now but with no parole. And most of all stop discussing him, printing newspaper articles about him, even thinking about him. Lock him up, throw the key away, forget about him. Deny him the platform for his twisted idiotic views that notoriety and the media give him.
 
#89 ·
Having read all this. I'd have to say I agree with those who suggested that executing people is not easy and those who call for it would likely as not be able to actually carry out the deed.

I question the comment I read to the effect that he only did what others are thinking. Murdering other people's children!!!!!!! FFS!

Personally I think the best punishment for this guy would be the one he has now but with no parole. And most of all stop discussing him, printing newspaper articles about him, even thinking about him. Lock him up, throw the key away, forget about him. Deny him the platform for his twisted idiotic views that notoriety and the media give him.
Excellent...no parole...no access to press...no ability to write or publish stories..create an abyss denying any contact period..
 
#95 ·
Recidivism (re-offending) rates in Norway is around 20%, while in the US it's around 65%, and in the UK it's 50%. So say what you will about their soft justice, it works better than either of ours.

Not saying I want Breivik out in 21 years, but for the most part it seems Norway does justice better than we do in the UK, or they do in the States....
 
#98 ·
I don't see how punishment cures mental illness or derangement. Without question, as a society we need to protect ourselves from people who are dangerous but I don't sit comfortably when people call for such people to be made to suffer or be punished.

Like you I think trying to understand why people are the way they are is important in the same way as understanding plague and polio has made the world a better place. Doesn't mean I think plague or polio are things I am 'soft' on. Hasn't made it go away but we have made its impact much smaller.
 
#99 · (Edited)
I am in no way intending to suggest that punishment is a cure.

I am trying to suggest that such individuals are the essence of mental derangement and therefore worthy of study - humane study.

On eradication, or lessening of signs and symptoms; I think antibiotics and their uses are an excellent model for my point. We have now lived under the belief that antibiotics are a panacea for all infections for so long that we are near the end of them being at all effective. 4-Corners (for Jonk and other Aussies - http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/10/25/3618608.htm), only a week or two ago, suggested that within a decade we could be back to a situation similar (or worse) to how things were pre-antibiotics due to the amateur attitude we have that we "special clever" people can eradicate everything we take exception to; like our Norwegian mate and his ilk.
 
#102 ·
How do you deter or stop it?
Firstly you have to understand what drives the offender to offend to answer that question; we are not going to find that out by cooking him. Obviously incarceration and/or the death penalty is not a deterrent unless you have a healthy(ish) psyche - I doubt this Bloke has much healthy going on in his psyche.

Secondly, I have not suggested we give this Bloke a Hawaiian lea, a slap on the back and we say "Seeya later Matey". Repeat offense is not an option while he's locked up.

Just for the record, I wouldn't get too upset if the colour flatscreen tele in his cell went on the blink, or his pillow wasn't puffy enough either.
 
#123 ·
See my earlier post. Norway has a much, much lower repeat offence rate. Something like 20pc, versus our 50,and your 60 percent. Of course, a dead criminal can't offend, but you can't kill all your criminals... Who will run your banks???
 
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