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Adding to Oil Capacity (OIF)

16K views 77 replies 27 participants last post by  JohnA 
#1 ·
Have just recieved the frame and associated bits and pieces back from sand blasting and coating with a two pack black paint. Whilst cleaning out the oil reservoir of sand residue I noticed the small diameter breather pipe for the reservoir up under the front frame head lug. I thought that maybe I could 'modify' this pipe to allow easy entry of extra lubricating oil into the system, maybe upwards of a litre?
Would having the scavage exit pipe in the reservoir under oil be a problem? I intend fitting a Norton type oil filter fitting into the system so that should prevent 'backflow' into the sump via the oil pump. Could 'backflow' travel to the sump via the rocker shafts etc?
I have always been of the opinion that Triumph Twins have been under capacity in the lubricating oil department, a bit more (including that which will be in the filter) can not do any harm?
 
#4 ·
The tube near the steering head is the oil tank vent. I don't think it would be a good place to add extra capacity. Early OIF's routed it to a Tee in the crank case breather tube where it vented to the atmosphere. Later OIF's routed it into the exhaust rocker box so it vented into the crank case.
 
#5 ·
I thought I read somewhere that the original OIF design called for the filler to be up by the steering head and the entire backbone was intended to be part of the reservoir. I forget why that that to be changed and the filler moved to behind the tank.

Am I remembering correctly?

regards,
Rob
 
#6 ·
Some of the aftermarked frames had the filler at the front of the tank just behind the steering head. Those could use the entire backbone for oil. As far as the "original" OIF design, I don't know if it was intended to be that way.
Lovecuba, if the return opening was below the oil level, I guess oil would seep through the rocker shafts and drain down the push rod cover tubes to the sump.
 
#7 ·
OIF Additional Capacity



Thanks Jimmy, thats my guess too, just needed it confirmed.

Yesterday we fitted a Norton type filter onto my Mates 76' T140. A bit tricky, not a huge amount of room between the filter and the particular fairly large profile tyre he is running. Used Gates 5/16 in auto trans hose with the inlet to the filter housing connected to the scavange side of the oil pump and from the outlet side, back up to the entry pipe into the reservoir. Used double hose clips on all connections including the filter as none of the pipe work had any sort of ferrule or flange to grip the rubber hose (which was a bloody tight fit on the filter pipes) When filling the filter with fresh oil, prior to screwing it on to the housing, an extra approx 300 ml of oil is added to the system. He is now thinking of an oil cooler. My concern is that the pump is already under a little extra load in pushing the oil through the filter. To add more plumbing and capacity might not do the pump any good.
 
#11 ·
Hi Webby,

I always thought that story was a bit of a crock. As an aside, Bordeaux is a great city. I've been there a few times, although not for a few years, and was impressed by some of the potential of the older part by the river which had been rather run-down. My particular favourite though is further south - Biarritz, Bayonne and the Pyrenees. Great motorbiking country.

Bruce
 
#13 ·
Hi Bruce, yes Bordeaux is nice, the part by the river is slowly being refurbished, even the area around the train station!
But, the landscape here is too flat and the roads are too straight, in fact, riding a bike here is almost the same as Belgium, just warmer :)
I too like the roads further south, or even further east inland, they're great for a bike!
The strange thing is, absolutely no one in this region rides old bikes, all the people I seem to meet are from the north!

Webby
 
#14 ·
Oif



My thoughts, exactly. Oil's in this day and age don't froth, they have additives to prevent just that. Think of a 955 or 1050, imagine the effect those spinning gears (all 6 of them) would have on oil that tended to froth.

As long as Guinness, don't catch on! (about anti-froth)

In any case I am going to undertake an experiment when the bike is complete. I will feed an extra litre or two of oil into the frame and over a period of time (without starting the engine) measure the additional oil (if any) that flows into the sump via the rocker gear by placing a container under the removed sump bung. If there is no discernable flow into the sump when standing then the additional oil will become par for the course.

More oil is good in my book, in this circumstance.
 
#15 ·
In all Meriden tests the T140 ran cooler than the previous T120 (separate oil tank) due to the larger cooling surface of the oil reservoir in the main frame tube. The original road tests were completed in Arizona, they did not have over heating problems. Put more oil in if you must, but of all the problems that may have afflicted the T140 (Biggest selling large capacity British Bike) overheating wasn't one of them.
Cheers
bonnietiler
 
#16 ·
Oif



Fully understood. The extra oil I am going to add to the system will not be to counter any real or percieved overheating that is likely. Although a byproduct probably will be additional cooling due to the extra cooling surface area obtained as you mention above. My thoughts are simply, more oil is good! If the pump has a greater volume to play with then that volume becomes less 'stressed' than a lesser volume.
 
#17 ·
if you do add an inline filter - consider that you,ll have increased your
capacity with that device in line as well - but out of curiosity...why ?
of more importance - the OIF is hard to clean - if you've had yours sandblasted , after thoroughly cleaning it out to make sure you've got all the blast media out of it...do it again another few times - i can tell you from experience that the vast majority of people who do the resto trip with sandblasting\powder coating steps- underestimate the effects of sand through the engine.
 
#18 ·
Oil Filter



Yep, will thoroughly clean the tank, have done so with air and solvent (several times). I did seal the tank breather and return pipes with rubber bungs, left the sump plate firmly attached and the filler cap screwed on tight prior to blasting. The only place I have found residual sand so far is up in the top frame lug. My sandblaster/painter is an avid motorcyclist and knows the score having done many OIF frames over the years.
Have explained above why I believe more oil in the tank is better (just my opinion) and certainly cannot see any harm being done.
 
#19 ·
You could always tilt the bike 45 deg towards the front and fill up that way. :DJust don't forget that when you check the oil, you're gonna get a bath.:eek:

If overheating was not a problem in AZ, then I guess the only advantage here is prolonged oil life or maybe a better way to say it is prolonged oil capabililties for the same change interval.

regards,

Rob
 
#23 ·
Oif



Please explain the trouble part, am very interested.

Insofar as the 'someone else would have done it by now' that applies to all new ideas, someone has to have a go at some stage and maybe up until now they have not, except of course in the design of the aftermarket frames already mentioned!
 
#24 ·
My 72 TR6 leaked oil so badly from the front PRT starting the day I got it, that I frequently filled the frame with all it would accept. It was years before the oil-leak solution arrived (square section seals and wedding bands and a tappet o-ring) and I rode many thousand-mile trips, frequently flat out between gas stops. At a steady 95 the oil ran in a steady stream back along the primary cover and consumed a quart every 3-400 miles. I tried to find straight 50wt, but frequently ran 40wt or whatever I could get. Parts of that motor are still going at 107,000 miles. My 73 TR7 has a spin-on filter and a Lockhart oil cooler mounted by the headstock in the Trident location. The Lockhart oil cooler was a dealer option for hot climates and this was a Florida bike. I have no problem with smoking or wet-sumping. Now that we expect to eliminate all oil leaks, I am not concerned with capacity as I once was. Back when many (most?) Triumphs left their mark, capacity issues and mods were more important. Now, it is a matter of pride to have no leaks/consumption. Lubricating properties of oil is so much better now and many riders change at less than the recommended interval. With the spin-on filter, my oil is no longer black. It's been many years since I was a quart low, and that's quite a relief. Bob
 
#25 ·
Oif



Thanks Bob. I certainly don't expect to be using or leaking oil. The engine is undergoing a full overhaul and will be assembled with utmost care. My rational for having additional oil volume in the in the tube is very simple and has been explained in previous posts. If the experiment somehow 'fails' then I or anyone else have nothing to lose.
It will be some time before I can get on with this as bike is in a thousand pieces. In time I will post the results (if any) of the experiment. I am about to obtain two 'stick on' plastic digital read out thermometers one which will be afixed to the lower end of the tube, the other at the top under the tank. This is to enable me to gain before (stock oil capacity) and after (added capacity) temperature readings.
Experiments can be fun!
 
#28 ·
2 questions?
How are you going to fill the frame tube all the way up to the steering head area?
If successful, how are you going to measure the oil level in the frame seeing it will be way fuller than the factory inspection screw cap near the front of the seat?
Good on you for pushing the boundaries on the lubrication of your machine but I reckon there would have been more debate on this issue in corridors of the Triumph and BSA plants than this forum could ever muster?
I will be curious to find out from you though, just how much oil our OIF frames hold when filled to capacity?
Good luck with your project,
John Quinnell
 
#29 ·
Oif



Am going to fill in two stages, firstly trialling the addition of 1 litre and secondly 2 litres. Given that the stock capacity is 2.27 litres and the tube diameter is the same from bottom to top frame lug then a simple measurement from the base of the tube to stock oil hight can then be made, half this measurement = 1.3 litre. Given that the top half of the tube (under the fuel tank) is angled when adding the additional oil a measurement can then be made giving approx level.
As for the adding of, will use a 12 volt pump designed to drain the oil sumps of jet boat engines. These pumps use a capilliary tube which is fitted down the dipstick hole to suck the sump clear of oil (sump bung inaccessable). I will place the tube into a litre of clean engine oil and place the other tube into the frame breather up under the front lug.
Can only accurately measure oil in and the only way to check the level after running would be to drain out the system. As the engine is going to be virtually new I dont expect oil usage to be high.
Many thanks for your good thoughts. And, will report back in due course all aspects of this lil' experiment.
 
#30 ·
Are you sure you are not going to run into a pressurizing of the oil tank with your method. Since you are using the breather to pump in fluid, where is the compressed air going to go? Once you get the level above the oil return line from the engine, the air pressure will force oil back down that line until the check valves and/or the pump stop you. Then you will start to pressurize the tank.

You might want to put on a raincoat and put a tarp down around the bike. I suspect that when you pull your oil pump hose off, oil is going to shoot out that breather tube like a ketchup out of a squeeze bottle being jumped on by Rosey O'Donnell.:eek:

regards,
Rob
 
#31 ·
Quite wrong really! The cappilliary hose is a lot smaller diameter than the breather pipe, hence the name, cappilliary!!!!!!! It actually fits inside the breather pipe with plenty of room to spare to allow displaced air to escape.

Another ridiculous theory disposed off! And as for the raincoat, well the mind boggles!!!!!!!!!!
 
#32 ·
Lovecuba, I certainly will never claim to be an expert on Meriden twins but I will admit to being a thinker & question asker to better understand things in my own head.
From what I can understand, you are looking to maximize the oil storage capacity of an OIF frame by filling the frame with oil right to the top near the steering head?
Are you concerned that the oil pump may not have sufficient capacity to push against the additional head of oil?
I don't know if you've had the pleasure of removing the oil filler cap with the engine idling and watched the oil pump returning the oil scavenged from the sump back to the top oil level near the filler cap? The flow and pressure on idle isn't what you'd call brilliant?
I suppose you never know until you try something little out of the ordinary?
 
#33 ·
Adding an oil cooler , like the period Lockhart fitted to my TR65 (to Ministry of Defence spec) and TR7T (to my own spec), helps in crease oil capacity as well as cool the oil itself ! I found that with the trail/low geared TR7T, oil would burn up quicker than on the taller geared TSS-AV and TSX so I did what the MoD had for their TR65 and found and fitted a NOS Lockhart- really worth it !.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I missed that you are running a smaller tube up inside the breather. I agree that no pressurization will take place in with that method.

Instead of a cooler, which previous posts would indicate would not be required for these engines, why not just plumb in an extra tank and connect as if it were an oil cooler? This would negate any additional head pressure since it would be below the level of the return line. Although I think the amount of added head will be nil for the angled backbone. I would think if anything, the added head, as slight as it might be, would help the pump on the suction side, since it's been reported that these pumps don't suck as well as they pump.

Don't like my raincoat, huh? It's something you wish you had when a hydraulic line lets go. Trust me on that one.

Better make sure the original fill cap seals well. And you might put a piece of tape over it with DO NOT OPEN on it. Because if you don't, you know one of your mates is gonna open up that cap to smell your oil or something one day when your back is turned. You might still want to keep that tarp on the floor.:D

regards,
Rob
 
#35 ·
OIF Additional Capacity

Hi John, I do not believe that the extra head caused by the addition of 1-2 litres of oil will impact on the scavenge pipe outlet. The oil pump is of the piston variety and thus provides a 'positive' and solid flow. I would have more concern in respect to strain on the pump if the scavenge side had to feed both an after market oil filter and force oil through a front mounted radiator. Although, many on this forum have no problem whatsoever with that arrangement. The reason why the flow from the scavenge pipe is intermittant and slow is that the scavenge side of the pump has a lot more capacity than the pressure side. This is evidenced by the relative diameters of the pump pistons where it can be seen that the scavenge piston has a 12.3mm and the pressure side 10.3mm.
Just to further prove the point, try to hold your finger against the outlet of the pipe with engine idleing and cold, this will give you an indication of the force inherent in the pump.

Yes Rob, will ensure there is no accidental opening of the sealed filler cap.

Speaking of the filler cap, it has been suggested by a Mate that I drill and tap into the filler cap a pressure oil filler. A bit like a grease nipple and designed to feed oil into tanks where there is no access at the head. A standard grease gun, with an adapter for the oil nipple fitted, can then be used to feed in the additional oil. Hmmmmmmmmmm !
 
#37 ·
but...WHY ? to what advantage ? is an extra litre or two of oil an improvement ? it's not necessary. it never ceases to amaze me what lenghs people will go to to achieve - nothing. the oif , like the earlier units - holds sufficient oil . if you're really all that concerned about it - keep a litre of oil in your sadlle bag -
 
#38 · (Edited)
I think the fact that the new frame ended up with 1 1/2 pints less capacity than the previous oil tank model and this was obviously not how it was originally designed to be, holds a certain fascination and intrigue for many. Norman Hyde who was a design engineer working on the T140's original development team is quoted in an article in Classic Bike from 1999 as saying the oil filler was moved at the last minute because of fears of it being confused with the petrol filler. He seemed to see the reduced oil capacity as a negative in terms of the quantity and the oil temperature implications. There's nothing like telling someone they can't have something to make them want it. It does seem in general that motors with large oil capacities seem to last longer. If the top part of the frame was filled with oil it would no doubt keep oil temperatures down in hot conditions which could certainly be beneficial, although it may well not be necessary. It would also give more head of oil for the oil pump which could be beneficial if using a Charlies type filter. A benefit that's often quoted of using an oil cooler and a return filter is increasing oil capacity, so there are many who have a concern about the reduced capacity, whether that is real or imagined.

From my perspective, I'm just curious to see how the setup would have worked as originally designed. I've read of people moving the filler back to the neck of the frame on Flat Tracker builds etc. but never heard how it actually worked for anyone.
 
#39 ·
on my 76 bonneville i to was drawn in to oil capacity issue. and am still not resolved to answer. but i did install both a trident type oil filter and a old style lockhart vertical oil cooler on the right side frame down tube. in my case what ever capacity i have gained is a plus as bike uses a bit of oil. bike runs strong so new rings as well as a valve job will be later then sooner. during cold weather i run a homemade leather cover on the cooler.
 
#42 ·
Norman Hyde does seem to have some strange ideas. The notion that the oil filler position was moved at the last moment so that people wouldn't mistakenly try to fill the frame with petrol seems as daft as the claim that Triumph decided to de-tune the T140 engine by fitting a Spitfire inlet cam.

The oil-in-frame Adventurers, B50s and B25s had the filler in front of the tank: these bikes were designed and manufactured by the same people.

I doubt whether anyone would be so moronic as to first undo the oil filler cap, then get as far as trying to get the petrol pump nozzle into it, and still continue with what by then would be obviously the wrong thing to do!
 
#43 ·
I have to say I've always thought the same thing John, anyone who would confuse the little screw on cover of the oil filler with the large chrome cap on the fuel tank is probably too stupid to own a motorcycle anyway. I could imagine them pulling the badge out of the top of the tank and then complaining they couldn't get fuel in there either :) Who knows who made the decision, but there were definitely people that stupid in Triumph's management at the time whoknew nothing about motorcycles either.
 
#45 ·
Reasons Why?



Both the oil foaming issue and a general hubris over placement resulting in what we have today and has been the subject of occasional debate over the years.
The oil foaming issue has been put to bed by the evolution of modern oils, if that (the issue) was ever out of bed that is.
In my view, the more stored oil the better and I personally see that huge empty space as a waste, just needing to be filled with-- oil.
Will have an oil pressure gauge fitted so will not find the need to remove the cap to check return flow.
This topping up of the oil capacity is going to be an experiment, if it all pans out then good! If it becomes a problem or hassle its back to normal
 
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