Triumphrat

02-26-2005

Here I am with my new S3, and I don't know what to think..
..should you trust your new engine with this?

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

vitabrew · 02-26-2005

That's how I broke in my T-100 mainly because it's a lot more fun. That was only one year ago so it's too early to speculate on whether it did harm or good.

trypcil · 02-26-2005

It seems extreme doesn't it - but with all the articles on the net there, appears to be a common denominator - getting the rings seated. Largely, that is done now differently than before because of present day manufacturing processes. There have been incidences of oil consumption with a few Triumphs and I would suspect over babying as the culprit. However out and out thrashing of your new engine is probably not a good idea, but if you read the run-in procedure in the owners manual they seem to allude to a more 'pushey' procedure than simply keeping to a rev limit per miles travelled system. A point that I've noted was when I acquired my S3, a demo bike was acquired by a friend. His of course was never babied and bike to bike (both black S3's) his had more uuumph than mine - jets, fuel screws, pipes were the same - tweaked stock. I know no bike is the same off the show room floor but there is a growing consensus that 'Hard cycling' to seat the rings is the preferred procedure. Ultimately the choice is yours of course and by now you may have put many miles on your new bike, perhaps a good few 'cracks' up to the red line might make up for any nagging doubts you may have - after all the warranty should take care of any failures :-D

Diego · 02-26-2005

> ..should you trust your new engine with this?

Oh sure. What would the maker's engineers and testers know about engines anyway?

I'm being facetious, of course. There has been no wide occurence of poorly seated rings using the manufacturer's procedure that I've ever heard of! And the only reason anyone could possibly have to think there's a "consensus" about this is just because that same BS site and others derived from it keep getting lots of mention.

Thankfully, modern engines are built well enough that most people using that method won't tear them up right away. But I don't want to own one afterward!

The manufacturer's procedure is not "babying" the engine!

Triumph feels they have very good reason for the 3500 rpm limit for the first hundred miles, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. My own dealer said not to be afraid to push it to the specified rpm limit after that, and I've been glad to do so. I don't know if I've shortchanged myself by 3-5hp for the next 50,000 miles or not. But I fully expect to make it through that 50,000 and probably the next 50,000 with no more oil consumption that I have now...which is zero. I'm doubtful how many of the beat-em-to-crap bikes will make it to that point.

RedBird · 02-26-2005

LT,
I don't believe much has changed in my life-time for engine break-in needs. To best seat the rings there needs to be some full throttle accelerations and some closed throttle decelerations from speed (gearing down using the engine for braking purposes--if you will). This in NO way means you run the engine to red-line to accomplish. It can be done well within the posted speed limits on our roads. Opening the throttle wide open doesn't mean you hold it open long enough to run the rpm's too high.
I have done this on all my new engines or rebuilt engines during my life. My '77 GMC pickup truck now has 135,000 miles on the orininal engine and it burns no oil and appears to me to have as much power as when new.

I have seen people take break-in to the extreme on autos--racing them from the get-go. My good friend broke in a chevy malibu this way and it didn't seem to hurt it any--in fact it was the fastest car of that type around our area. It had over 80,000 miles on it when it was stolen and he never recovered it. It never used oil and there were no performance issues.

I have never done the extreme type (racing) break-in and I am too old now to even think about it. I will continue to break in any new engines I purchase by ensuring there are many full throttle accelerations and closed throttle decelerations during the first 75--150 miles. I don't believe this is against what most manufacturers say. I believe the worst thing for break-in is freeway driving at a constant speed, and most manufacturers caution against this during break-in. They encourage you to vary your speed. From a legal stand-point they have to be very cautious about any directions they give because interpretations vary greatly. Some read full throttle accelerations as run her wide open to red line--hence the extreme type (racing) break-in. I choose to interpret "varying your speed" to mean varying the throttle settings from zero to full while keeping rpm and speed within reasonable limits.
Larry

shortys · 02-27-2005

Manufacturers simply cannot tell everyone that buys their product how to break in an engine for absolute best result. They certainly suggest a method that does the least harm.
One thing all will tell you is don't run them "no load" that is, without resistance. I break my street engines in the way I intend to run them, just for short durations, up/down always loading, never over revving.
Your motoman article (and the technique is not anything new) seems to carry the opposite to an extreme. Dyno run ins are for the specific application in my book, and vary with end application of the power plant. It's part of building an engine set up for specific job.
A little knowledge can lead to big expensive lesson.
I'll bet your S3 will do just fine under Triumphs suggested break-in procedure.jmho
happy motoring, Lt.

[ This message was edited by: shortys on 2005-02-26 23:09 ]

dolson · 03-04-2005

One thing to remember, not all engines are built the same. Different countries build differently also.

This one has been beat about to death many times and it comes down to how patient you are and how you view your investment.
1. If you aren't patient and don't follow Triumph's recommended procedure and it doesn't come out right you have no one to blame but yourself.

You are doing several things when breaking in a engine.
Sealing the top end and lapping and cleaning the bottom end.
The best is to go to areas where you have twists and hills. this will vary the engine speed. You want higher gear and more throttle opening to keep BMEP (break mean effect pressure)high. This will take care of your top end with good sealing and no carbon buildup really keeping the rings on the walls.
No lugging though, as this will hammer the bearings. You want to keep it smooth.

You are also cleaning and polishing the bearings and journals in the bottom and cam assys.

On the cam side you have the followers and springs to think about. Springs need to take a set, obtain a normalcy in tension. Compressing a spring too fast without allowing it to obtain this process will result in a weak spring or a collapsed one at the worse.

On the bottom end side, even though modern engines are spun in at the factory they never go through heat cycles until the buyer gets it. Your engine is made of many different materials and they all expand and contract at different rates with heat cycles. These engines are built very, very tight with a VERY thin oil film between moving parts. There will be irregularities and if they touch metal to metal you'll burn that spot. When you burn a spot on a crank journal or bearing, the excess heat will weaken that spot and it will wear down. Then you are well and truly screwed.

There are 2 absolute worst things you can do during the break-in process. Lugging and freeway riding.

They also need to breath too. Put a load on it then let it coast down.

I followed the prescribed break-in schedule as far as the RPM schedule. I didn't baby her but I didn't punish her either.

Also these motors continue to break-in for many miles. Mine ran better at 5k than at 1k and better at 7k than 5k. After 7-8k miles she will be about as good as it gets.

So, like I said, it's your investment. Are you going to believe someones busy theory who doesn't care one way or the other. Or go with the factory who doesn't want to do warranty work and knows every minute detail of you engine?

BTW, I changed the oil at 500 miles with the same stuff. Then again at 1500 miles. At 3000 I went to full synthetic.

Just my $.02 worth

Don

dolson · 03-04-2005

One thing to remember, not all engines are built the same. Different countries build differently also.

This one has been beat about to death many times and it comes down to how patient you are and how you view your investment.
1. If you aren't patient and don't follow Triumph's recommended procedure and it doesn't come out right you have no one to blame but yourself.

You are doing several things when breaking in a engine.
Sealing the top end and lapping and cleaning the bottom end.
The best is to go to areas where you have twists and hills. this will vary the engine speed. You want higher gear and more throttle opening to keep BMEP (break mean effect pressure)high. This will take care of your top end with good sealing and no carbon buildup really keeping the rings on the walls.
No lugging though, as this will hammer the bearings. You want to keep it smooth.

You are also cleaning and polishing the bearings and journals in the bottom and cam assys.

On the cam side you have the followers and springs to think about. Springs need to take a set, obtain a normalcy in tension. Compressing a spring too fast without allowing it to obtain this process will result in a weak spring or a collapsed one at the worse.

On the bottom end side, even though modern engines are spun in at the factory they never go through heat cycles until the buyer gets it. Your engine is made of many different materials and they all expand and contract at different rates with heat cycles. These engines are built very, very tight with a VERY thin oil film between moving parts. There will be irregularities and if they touch metal to metal you'll burn that spot. When you burn a spot on a crank journal or bearing, the excess heat will weaken that spot and it will wear down. Then you are well and truly screwed.

There are 2 absolute worst things you can do during the break-in process. Lugging and freeway riding.

They also need to breath too. Put a load on it then let it coast down.

I followed the prescribed break-in schedule as far as the RPM schedule. I didn't baby her but I didn't punish her either.

Also these motors continue to break-in for many miles. Mine ran better at 5k than at 1k and better at 7k than 5k. After 7-8k miles she will be about as good as it gets.

So, like I said, it's your investment. Are you going to believe someones busy theory who doesn't care one way or the other. Or go with the factory who doesn't want to do warranty work and knows every minute detail of you engine?

BTW, I changed the oil at 500 miles with the same stuff. Then again at 1500 miles. At 3000 I went to full synthetic.

Just my $.02 worth

Don

Diego · 03-04-2005

> I don't believe much has changed in my life-time for engine break-in needs.

Having some experience with the industrial control systems used in manufacturing processes, I have to agree with the manufacturers when they say it has changed. Triumph are not using the same materials nor machining them in the same way that they were during, say, the manufacture of my 1980 Bonneville. One example: back then, closed-throttle deceleration was desirable to draw some oil up into the cylinder at times during the 3000-mile (or more) run-in period. That's no longer the case.

Discounting the Indian-made Royal Enfields or some custom shops, no major motorcycle manufacturer is making engines anything like what GM produced for cars or trucks in the Seventies.

Ring seating is seldom an issue any more (though rings and cylinder walls can be impacted by prolonged constant-speed operation, which is still recommended against). Dolson is very right about run-in being about more than the rings, anyway. Abuse the bearings and journals with full throttle too early, or by lugging the engine any time during run-in, and the results will be less predictable than with the manufacturer's method. And springs--oh, the springs. Ask any Triumph race team what the weakest link is in an unseasoned engine, and "valve springs" are likely to be the first words you hear.

Dolson is also right about this topic being done to death, so I'll hush for now.

[ This message was edited by: Diego on 2005-03-04 12:56 ]

Diego · 03-04-2005

> I don't believe much has changed in my life-time for engine break-in needs.

Having some experience with the industrial control systems used in manufacturing processes, I have to agree with the manufacturers when they say it has changed. Triumph are not using the same materials nor machining them in the same way that they were during, say, the manufacture of my 1980 Bonneville. One example: back then, closed-throttle deceleration was desirable to draw some oil up into the cylinder at times during the 3000-mile (or more) run-in period. That's no longer the case.

Discounting the Indian-made Royal Enfields or some custom shops, no major motorcycle manufacturer is making engines anything like what GM produced for cars or trucks in the Seventies.

Ring seating is seldom an issue any more (though rings and cylinder walls can be impacted by prolonged constant-speed operation, which is still recommended against). Dolson is very right about run-in being about more than the rings, anyway. Abuse the bearings and journals with full throttle too early, or by lugging the engine any time during run-in, and the results will be less predictable than with the manufacturer's method. And springs--oh, the springs. Ask any Triumph race team what the weakest link is in an unseasoned engine, and "valve springs" are likely to be the first words you hear.

Dolson is also right about this topic being done to death, so I'll hush for now.

[ This message was edited by: Diego on 2005-03-04 12:56 ]