Triumphrat

motiztab

Help!

Thought the bike had a bit of a rattle which seamed a strange as the shims have just been done. Anyway thought I had better investigate, just as well as it's the b***** alternator bolt AGAIN!
Now I got this bike last year with 5000 on the clock its now got 8500 and I have already had this problem before.
Last time I had to have the remains of the bolt removed with Spark Erosion.
What I want to know is can this be done again or am I into another alternator, what can be seen of the thread looks OK. Also what can be done to stop it happening again or am I going to have to check this very 2000 miles as it only lasted 3000 odd miles on the last repair.

Just what I wanted at the beginning of a holiday! :???:

blacktiger

Sounds like you need to weld the bloody thing on!

__________________
H
'02 Tiger955i in black.

Motiz, have you read THIS thread about the later bolt and the Belleville washer? Did you fit a new washer the right way round and use a torque wrench?
There is no reason why you can't have the broken one removed by spark erosion again.
Any chance of seeing a large pic of the bolt head that broke off?

[ This message was edited by: terry on 2004-05-02 16:45 ]

motiztab

Terry thanks for the reply.

I never seam to get far when I "search" otherwise most likely have found that link.
Interesting about the washer, not sure which way round it was, and yes I did not know it was a Belleville
The bolt had not sheared off when I pulled the alternator but the rattle was the washers and the head of he bolt rubbing against the nut on the through bolt holding the alternator drive shaft. From looking at the Haynes manual it looks like it's got the later through bolt system.
The bolt sheared when I was removing it! No I did not put excessive force on it but was gently unscrewing it and it just sheared. I wanted to take it out 'cause it had been thread locked and wanted to clean and refit.
After reading the link thread it would appear that a 10.9 bolt is required, the one I had is marked 12.9, is that higher or lower in grade?

Looks like this could be down to me then not knowing about the Belleville and possible incorrect bolt strength.

Do you know if the UK dealers can supply replacement Belleville’s or should I try straight to Belleville, and at the same time find out what the torque setting is?

Is SWare inferring that the bolt that holds the alternator drive also breaks and has been replaced with the through bolt ( if so mines already that, as I said above) or is he saying that a different alternator shaft and bolting system is available.

Oh, and Blacktiger

yep that just what I was thinking!

SWare

The alternator drive bolt(s) was changed to a through bolt in later production I believe.

As to your recurring problem I would think a new bolt, belleville and threadlock should fix you up.
That is assuming the threads are still in good shape and the splines are not excessively worn.

Stan

Motiz, I haven't had this problem on my bike so I think the experiences of j98, Stan, EdC & Gary are more useful than any advice I have.

The 12.9 bolt has a higher tensile strength than a 10.9 but if Triumph used a 10.9 then you should use that. The 10.9 is a medium carbon steel but the 12.9 is an alloy heat treated steel. The problem with using a 12.9, particularly if it is plated is it can suffer from a condition called hydrogen embrittlement and suffer stress cracking. It can fail at well below it's yield strength. The bolt should be heat treated after plating to remove the hydrogen but there are a lot of rubbish bolts on the market, probably mostly from East Europe. There is no reason not to use a plain black finish bolt as corrosion resistance is not an issue.

Referring to the link in my above post there is a comment by Gary that the impeller spline is a loose fit. I think this fact is a big contribution to both the loosening of the bolt or it's failure. The movement of the impellar is allowing movement between the mating threads of the bolt and this is the cause of any bolt coming loose even though it was torqued-up correctly. If the bolt shears then the movement of the impeller is no doubt causing a fatigue failure of the bolt.

I think the answer is to prevent movement of the mating splines. If I had a problem then I would first try a Loctite retaining compound such as 609 which can fill gaps of .008".
If this wasn't successful I would try Loctite Quick Metal 660 or a similar epoxy type metal bonding compound. You won't get it off again but when would you want to?
I'm not advising you to do this; I'm just saying that is what I would try.

The belleville is a Triumph Part so you can order it as a spare part. It may be interesting to contact Belleville with the problem and ask their Technical Dept for some advice. Perhaps Triumph got it wrong somewhere?

motiztab

Just to bring you all a update on the shearing bolt saga.

Spoke to Jack Lilley (London for those out side of the UK), they keep the Triumph bolts, hardened washer and the Belleville washer in stock. They also said that they carry out this type of repair but do not know of a special fix.
Unfortunately missed the 6pm closing time so decided to call into my local dealer down in Dorset the next day, and had the completely different reply.
Do not keep in stock, will have to order, and have not done this repair for a long time. However did say that if there is a factory improvement that would be the part that arrives.

Its crazy to think that the total cost cannot be more that a few pound, the bolt is listed at 50pence so the washers cannot be much more. yet this keeps the bike off road. looking like it won't be back on the road till the week end! thats a whole week just for a 6mm bolt.

stevent

Out of curiosity, what's a belleville washer? I've never heard of one. Is it like a star washer or lock washer or something? :???:

__________________
stevent....."May the Goddess turn the hearts of those who hate us, if not their hearts then turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping..."

MickMaguire

It's a cupped washer made from spring steel

__________________
Mick...

motiztab

Update time.

Its Saturday morning and of I go to my local dealer, Have you got my bolt and washers I ask?
Er bolt? was the reply.
Yes, Remember I came in on Tuesday and ordered 2 of each of the bolt, and washers.
I'll have a look. was the reply
5 Min's later am still waiting, mean while said parts man comes back to check part number, to which he cannot find it and I have to show him!
While he's away in comes a lady holding a new tyre!, so being a nice guy (aren't we all) I stike up a conversation.Turns out she brought the tyre back because its a front and she wants a rear, my faith that the missing bits will arrive now disappears.
Did he come up with the goods? No
I'll order them again he say's and then goes on about how maybe they did not hit the min order value for the factory.
To which my reply was well I can get them over the counter in Lilliey's and I my just go and get them.
Any way gave him the benefit of doubt that he will come up with the goods early next week.
Off I go muttering dark thoughts about it all.
Me being me sod it I said and off I go, round trip of 157miles and in my hot sticky mitt, 1 bolt and 2 washers.
Yes it did cost me more in petrol than the combined price bolt and washers (£1.23p) but thats not the point and JL gained as I spent £41 with them in other bits.

Got the bits cleaned it all up and put it back together again, lets see if it lasts more than 3000 miles this time.