Triumphrat

mikemm03 · 12-29-2005

2003 America.
Drained all fluid,removed calipers, replaced the pads,brake hoses,and fluid.(No Leaks)
I had installed the speed bleeders sometime ago.
Ended up having to buy a bleed vacuum because I could not get the fluid to come through the caliper. Anyway got the brakes bled. No air bubbles just fluid.
But, I have very little brake in front and the rear is even worse. Front lever travels to within 1" before grabbing, no sponge just low lever but it will stop the bike. Not at high speed I'm sure!
Rear pedal travels 1 and 1/4" before grabbing. It does not bottom out but it is basically useless.

Apparently I am doing something wrong, even tho I have done this several times before and the rear always had a lot of travel. I have adjusted the pedal and it helped somewhat.
When I had the calipers on the bench I tried to remove the pistons. The seemed as if they were were stuck. Not being sure I did not want to force the issue and let them be.
Should the pistons come out? Are they pressed in? I'm wondering if this is the problem.
I have strapped down the lever and pedal for tonight hoping
the pressure will somehow free the restriction.
Any ideas gang?
Mike

miker · 12-29-2005

Mike, you seem to have a dilemma indeed?

I've had similar problems in the past, although I have no experience with an America.

You mentioned you couldn't get the pistons out? Not sure about those calipers, but the pistons would normally pop out if you took the pads out, but left the line attached and applied the brake lever. Some calipers have a retaining clip to prevent them popping completely out, but if there's a bit of grime in there you may not see the cilp at first. Having said all that, if there is no need to remove the pistons, the fluid has been changed, and they don't leak,then don't bother.

To get the good lever, you need patience. You'll need to bleed the air as much as possible, then wait a bit. Make sure the bleeder nipple is at the highest point on the caliper, by this I mean, some calipers hold air above the nipple and you need to remove the caliper, place a small piece of timber between the pads then bleed it.

You also need to work slowly, bleed it once or twice, then wait a little, perhaps 10 minutes, then go again. Making sure you screw the cap on the reservioir each time you refill.

Then, do as you are doing, leave it overnight. You can either hold the lever in with a cable tie, or you can leave it out and leave the bleeder open, cap off the reservioir and let some of the fluid drain through. At least, this is the way I do my Harley dual front brakes.

You did use the correct fluid yes? The incorrect fluid may cause issues like this, plus, check the handlebar brake lever adjuster (does it have one?) is where you normally have it.

If nothing works properly after you've tried everything, you may have unsettled the piston O-rings when you were trying to remove them, and they may need checking or replacing.

Of you haven't a shop manual, good idea to get one.

Not sure if this will help, but see how you go!

Cheers,
Mick.

mikemm03 · 12-29-2005

Miker, thanks for the reply. No lever adjuster on the America. I don't think I damaged the pistons,I was pretty gentle.
If leaving the levers tied down tonight does not do the trick I'll try the methods you have suggested.

Sort of a bummer ya know. I replace all the lines and everything with anticipations of new and stronger brakes.
And now nothing, aw well I'll give her another try tomorrow till I get it right.
Mike

LT · 12-29-2005

Didn't loosen the bleeders too much? Is yours one that was recalled to re-position the caliper? Good luck.

mikemm03 · 12-29-2005

LT, Not familiar with a caliper recall, so I guess not.
I have the speed bleeders. 1/4 turn and they are open.
Press the lever and a spring ball opens,release the lever and the ball closes. Nice little upgrade. makes for one man brake bleeding.
Yes I have done this before and the speed bleeders have been installed for a couple years.
Thanks,mike

12-30-2005

Hi Mike,

I just saw your post.

If you don't have a fluid leak (at your pistons) and your pistons are not jammed (they apply some pressure and return) then you should assume that you only have a bleeding issue.

All other things being equal the problem you have must be trapped air. Taping the lever / wedging the pedal will have limited effect if the trapped air cannot find it's way back up to the master cylinder. The reason you do this is that the compression assists in collecting micro-bubbles and helps them to un-stick from components. But if gravity does not allow it - they will not disappear.

It only takes a small amount of air to cause this issue. You will already know that when this small amount of air is compressed enough it eventually provides what kind of feels like a normal lever feel (with poor initial feel). The front is better than the back but it is still trapped air.

What Miker said about removing the caliper may assist but (when I changed lines on my T100) I found that those speed bleeders were a nuisance. I think their correct place is when you only have a fluid change - not also with lines.

I put the conventional nipples back (with some thread tape) in and used a long piece of clear pvc attached a vacuum device. You may need to pull quite a bit of fluid through, you may need to tap the lines and caliper (with a soft implement) to free any attached air bubbles and you may also need to remove the caliper and position it so that the bleed nipple is at it's highest point.

Once you have placed several fills of your master cylinder through and no longer see any air travel through then you can tighten up and try your lever feel. You don't need to put the cap back on each time - just don't run it dry.

If you get it right you can put the speed bleeder back in and push or pull a little more fluid through to make sure you remove the air out below the nipple.

You do have to be patient. It has to be air if things are as you described. You should not need to adjust your pedal.

Hope this helps.

Woody

mikemm03 · 12-30-2005

Woody, Thanks for the advice.
I left the lever and pedal strapped down last night and the situation has improved somewhat.
I was thinking about riding the bike to heat everything up
thinking the pads need to seat and this might loosen things up?

I was thinking the speed bleeders could be part of the problem.
I installed the speed bleeders a couple of years ago but have forgotten the procedure.
To replace with the stock bleeders can I just take the cap of the master cylinder to relieve pressure and remove the bleeder?
I understand some amount of fluid may leak out but it want squirt out correct?

Mike

[ This message was edited by: mikemm03 on 2005-12-30 10:57 ]

Slinky · 12-30-2005

Quote:

On 2005-12-30 10:54, mikemm03 wrote:

To replace with the stock bleeders can I just take the cap of the master cylinder to relieve pressure and remove the bleeder?
I understand some amount of fluid may leak out but it want squirt out correct?

Better to leave the cap on when you swap the bleed nipples, that way you will lose less fluid because of the vacuum effect.

I am not sure what the BA setup is, but on the Tbird there is a lot of travel on the lever before anything starts to happen. This is purely down to the master cylinder size ( 11mm ). A 1/2" cylinder would have been a better match for the caliper.

12-30-2005

Hi back Mike,

Sorry I'm only at my laptop from time to time.

With or without the cap on no significant amount of fluid will run out - there just isn't enough flow without the lever to induce it.

Don't ride the bike until you have proper brake force back...

The situation will not be improved from either warming up or riding it. It is just a matter of patiently removing the air which is trapped and there is no substitute for pumping some fluid through.

You may have to waste up to half a bottle and don't even think about putting the fluid back through the system once is has bled. It will almost certainly have some level of swarf or contaminant in it which you do not want in your master cylinder.

Respectfully suggest you go back to my first post and follow it through.

Woody

[ This message was edited by: woodwardpj222 on 2005-12-30 19:10 ]

mikemm03 · 12-30-2005

Woody,
Ok, Here's the update. Strapped down the levers and pedal over night.
BIG IMPROVEMENT. Bled front and rear again.
Front is good to go. Rear is slightly better.
I'll continue to bleed it over the next couple days. If it still is weak I'll pull the sucker off and have a go at compressing the pistons as suggested.
Also wondering if the speed bleeders could be part of the problem. Even tho I have had these on for a while and bled the brakes in the past. Just guessing,but I am going to reinstall the stock bleeders.
Honey do's calling so I guess it will wait till tomorrow. Heck it's to dang chilly for a ride anyway.
Mike