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Jonksters 1971 T120 Liquorice allsort

21K views 121 replies 23 participants last post by  jonkster 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
My name is Jonkster and I have a confession.

Several years ago and against all wisdom and sense, I bought a T120, sight unseen based on a handful of photographs and talking with the owner by phone.

Let this serve as a lesson to those who come after me.

NOTE: "Please be aware the first few posts in this thread cover a time period of over 3 years - the story has been condensed a bit to cover that period"

Hopefully this project thread will document the story of what happened next (and hopefully the thread will conclude at some point in the near future with the bike all bolted together and me riding it off into the sunset, happy and confident - that bit of the story is yet to happen though but I am the eternal optimist).

Hopefully also it will help me get some knowledge from the more knowledgeable members here - I figure there are going to be many questions I am going to ask and many things I am overlooking.

I had no idea then of what I was doing. The only difference between then and now is I now actually know I have no idea what I am doing. :)

The background:

I was looking for an OIF T120 because I heard they were one of the less desirable Triumphs (and so would be cheaper) and I wouldn't feel guilty about not doing a nuts and bolts restoration, just the kind of cosmetic and minor performance mods I wanted to make to make it a bike I would enjoy riding but with a bit of character.

So, as they do, a bike turned up for sale - the price was cheaper than I was intending to pay, it came with a current blue slip*, the owner seemed genuine and knowledgeable (a least to an innocent like me) and he said it would be a "good rider" not perfect but solid. Exactly what I was after.

It also had matching numbers (not something I was looking for but I figured it was a bonus). It had a disc front brake rather than the conical 71 brake - so I figured it was something of a bitsa and there would be no real guilt about me fudging around with something special.

(* in NSW a blue slip means a vehicle that has no current registration has been inspected by a licenced examiner who has determined the vehicle is both genuine - the engine number frame numbers match a known vehicle - and is roadworthy and so able to be registered - if an examiner signs off a blue slip then they must be confident the bike is roadworthy).

All in all - what could possibly go wrong?

Sadly I can't find any photos of what turned up soon after on the back of a ute. It actually looked better than I was expecting.

This one was taken a few weeks after I got it while I was trying to sort out some electrical issues (and after I had replaced the rear mudguard with a non chrome version and had removed the air filters (which turned out to be empty of actual filters but that is getting ahead of myself).



The tank had been freshly painted and looked quite shmick. There was lots of chrome (not my thing) but it did make it look all shiny and to someone as poorly educated about T120's as me, shiny made a positive impression.

The owner said he had put in new pistons and rings and hadn't touched the bottom end as when he was doing the pistons the bottom end seemed to be "one of the most solid ones he had ever come across".

The head he said had been recently overhauled but had been skimmed so needed a thicker than normal gasket - "not that you will need to worry about that for a while". The only weak point he said was the carbs, that he said were a bit ratty - you may need to do some work on them.

They looked good to me - someone had chromed them - they were very shiny. Surely I could just give them a bit of an internal clean up and all would be good?

I was feeling pretty chuffed with myself. I had got a BARGAIN!

After we unloaded it from the ute and kicked it into life (first kick!) it did blow some blue smoke from the (I have to admit very shiny) left pipe.

"what's this?" I asked.

"yeah all Triumph's will do that" said the owner "it has been sitting on the side-stand and oil tends to pool in the upper left of the head - it goes away pretty quick when you ride it - don't worry about it".

Well knowing nothing I just nodded and acted like "yeah sure of course".

So I gave him the money and he drove off into the sunset. Leaving me with a (very shiny) BARGAIN!.

And so begins the journey...
 
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#2 · (Edited)
OK - this post is the first bit of a quick fast forward to where I am now... only it'll probably take a while to get there...

Summary

1. I find the blue smoke doesn't go away after a while. It gets worse.

2. It is leaking oil out the head gasket and after a short while the front of the motor is black and glistening.

3 I didn't realise how gutless these 650s are - it pulls less than a Honda stepthrough :( - it doesn't have enough go to pull itself up my (admittedly steep) driveway without stalling. My Hinkley Thruxton is not that big a motor and weighs a lot more and accelerates up there barely off idle. I shamefacedly have to get my son and my wife to help push the lump up the drive into the garage. Surely this isn't right?

I get it into the garage and figure - it maybe isn't quite as good as it looks.

But it does look shiny. :)



I figure the blue smoke is related to the oil coming out the head gasket - maybe if I re-torque the head that should stop that. Well retorquing the head doesn't seem to be that easy - the bolts are so close to the frame but they do feel a bit loose so although I can't get a torque wrench in there I snig them up a bit (remember the bit where I said I had no idea what I was doing?). It seems to make a slight positive difference though.

I buy a manual (about the only sensible thing I had done up until this point) and start to wonder about the head as it looks all wrong. I am not getting the same vision as the manual writer clearly.



So I ask on this esteemed forum how it is supposed to fit.

The esteeemed forum informs me the rocker boxes are wrong. As is the head. And head bolts. The head I have is off a 1966 not a 1971 OIF and this is a big headache (like the pun?).

This explains why I can't torque the head like it says in the manual.

So I start searching for an appropriate head and rocker boxes that won't bust the bank account.

In the meantime I decide to replace the massive western style handlebars that make the bike look like a longhorn hereford


with some old clip ons I found which are more my style. There are 4 bolts that hold the bars on. They should be identical. I need 3 different size spanners (one metric) to remove them. On removal, the two that use the same size head have different thread pitches. This is starting to look seriously like a bodge job and I am thinking I was a goose for walking into this :(

Also in doing so I uncover some weird wiring issues. The bloke I bought it off said he had rewired it because the old wiring was dodgy.



I can't believe you could get any more dodgy than what it turns out he did. Bits twisted together and wrapped in tape (or in some cases not wrapped in tape, wires jammed bare into bullet sockets - the more I looked the worse it was. I just had to tug lightly on some of the wires and they fell apart. Removing his harness took about 10 minutes (including the time I took making and drinking a cup of tea)

So I bought some wire and remade a harness. Should be easy. No need to buy the ready made harness that I looked up that cost so much money - easy peasy! Making the harness took approximately 2 years off my life. If faced with that again I would buy a ready made harness without blinking an eyelid.

I had a look at the carbs - the bottom fuel banjos were just about solid with sandy rust. Oh dear. No wonder the old girl wasn't running right - she is starved of fuel!

I looked inside the tank that was so beautiful and shiny. The inside looked like the bottom of a budgie cage that had been dumped on the bottom of sydney harbour for the last 30 years - beautifully textured, crusty, flaky rust. Oh joy.

I tried the battery charger and washing soda electrolysis method and it cleaned it up dramatically.

I also realised the shiny carbs were cactus - the slides were worn away, the faces bent and they were just too painfully shiny even if they were salvageable.


I ended up buying a pair of new Amals and avoided the hassle.

I realise clipons with the standard foot pegs are not going to work. The pegs are too forward and I feel like a contortionist with the low bars.

Easy fix - I'll mount rearsets! I have some fancy Italian ones and make a bracket to suit. Only the kick start doesn't clear the pegs and in riding position my shin is pushed right into the kick start.

Easy fix - I mangle up an old CB750 kick start lever that clears the pegs and also sits more out of the way.



Except it bashes into the air filters I fitted to replace the stock 71 filter box (that when disassembled had no filters).

OK I'll worry about that later.


At this point the bike does run (although is still gutless) and looks like this:



Are we there yet?? Have I got my dependable rider yet?? Maybe just a bit longer.

I did find a second hand 71 head and also some 72 rocker boxes that look reasonable so I send the head off for reconditioning.

I decide once I get the head on things will start to look better. The wiring is done, the bars and switch gear work, the rearsets aren't perfect but will do until I get them better sorted. I have also added proper mufflers (the short ones it came with were way too loud for a sensitive soul like me and also just looked wrong.

I bought some new rear shocks, re-did the front brake lines, added a Pazon EI and although now nearly broke and thinking of auctioning off my children - the thing'll be fine when I bolt on the new head.

He said.
 
#3 ·
Sorry to hear of the hassle, there are a lot of bikes out there that are like this, over time, hard up or just plain stupid owners do all sorts to what were once just "old" bikes to keep them going.

The bike shouldn't be gutless. Maybe not comparable to a modern one but there is something up who pith it if it won't go up a hill
 
#6 · (Edited)
Continuing the tale...

this gets long. Feel free to look at the pictures if you get bored.

the head came back looking good. The missing bit of fin had been re-welded, it was blasted, valve bores reamed - they had been leaking and were scored, new valve guides and valves, valves seated, threads tidied up etc etc - but now all good to go.

I bought some 1972 head bolts with the bigger internal hex size on the recommendation of people here and second hand 72 rocker boxes with the wide covers for better access.

Removing the '66 head with the old head bolts was a job - I had to unbolt all the engine mountings and leave the motor balancing on a jack in the frame. I then could rock the motor just enough to withdraw the long head bolts past the spine of the frame - it was still a very tight squeeze and juggling the motor was awkward.

With the right head and bolts it was a lot easier putting the new head back on.

Moment of truth... still in the shed I fired her up (took first kick) and was promptly suffocated by white oil smoke from the left exhaust. I shut the bike down and had to go outside to get some oxygen :eek:

When I say suffocated I am only half jesting - after only a few seconds my little shed looked like a sauna room and I was gagging.

I decided it was probably just extra oil and grease from me assembling the bits - I used grease on all the gaskets, head gasket etc and had liberally oiled the rockers just in case the oil feed was not right (although with hind sight why rocker oil would get burned doesn't make much sense - I put it down to oxygen deprivation).

Surely it just needed a few minutes to burn that out.

Sensibly I decided to wheel it down onto the street into the open air before I started it again.

On the street I started it up again. Clouds of smoke. I figured it should clear quickly but it didn't - if anything it got worse. I also noticed oil spits coming out near the exhaust stubs (I had pushed the headers on and clamped them but hadn't used any sealer).

There was no apparent head gasket leak which was something. Still the smoke had my heart sinking. I decided I had probably only a short time before the neighbours called the fire brigade or the hazmat team or both, so I put it into gear and went to ride it up the driveway and... my heart really did sink - it was just as gutless as before - lots of revs, let out the clutch and it pulls the bike up a few feet before the engine runs out of go. I try slipping the clutch but it just doesn't work - it has no guts at all :(

This was not feeling good.

My son helped me push the old girl back up the drive into the shed and I sat wondering what to do next.

OK why the smoke? For reasons that I still don't understand I had convinced myself it wasn't pistons/rings. Despite my realising how much the bloke I bought it of had spun me a yarn I decided that because he said he had recently replaced the pistons and rings it couldn't be the pistons or rings. So I went looking for other possibilities.

I pulled the head off. There was oil in the exhaust port of the head.



In case someone with my lack of background or experience comes looking here with a similar problem, some of the things I decided it could be are (*and if I have any of this wrong please feel to correct me or add some extras I may have missed*):

1. oil leaking down the valve stem between the valve and valve guide. This however not likely with new valves and guides unless something has been done seriously wrong. Also probably not a cause for lots of smoke at idle or low revs - more on closing the throttle at higher revs.

2. Oil leaking down valve bores between head and the guide. Either because of wear and tear or in a newly added guide because the bore was scored when removing the previous guide.

3. In the OIF heads, because oil gets under the head bolts and tracks down them to the head gasket and can either leak back then into the cylinders or to the outside world

4. Because the bike has wet sumped due to a pump fault or the valve in the pump getting something into them leaving them open and the crankcase is full of oil. In a motor designed to have a dry sump, this can then get blown up past the rings.

5. Because the rings are worn or if new rings, because the haven't seated properly.

6. Because the rings have been inserted upside down (some rings are bevelled and have to be inserted with the correct side facing up)

Like I said - I am not a mechanic and the above is what I gleaned by doing some searching. Feel free to correct any of the above or add other reasons why you can get oil smoke out the exhaust.

Anyway I discounted options 5 and 6 for reasons that had more to do with me not having to pull the motor further apart to test it.

I tried pulling the sump plug - expecting lots of oil but only a small amount (as to be expected if the the pump and valve were working correctly) so that seemed to rule out option 4.

I rule out 3 because the head bolts are not oily and the head gasket shows no signs of oil (in the photo below the glistening on the gasket is the grease I used when installing the head - it was still clean and clear when I removed it.



So that left either 1 or 2. Had I got a dud head overhaul?

I posted questions about that here a few weeks ago (http://www.triumphrat.net/classic-vintage-and-veteran/518793-1971-t120-oil-leak-from-exhaust-spigot-on-head.html) and got some good suggestions about testing for and resolving that. With no valve spring tool and it being New Years day with all the auto parts shops shut I even built myself a wooden valve spring tool to get the valve off to apply some sealant:
(and yes although it did work I went and bought a real one as soon as I could :))

I tried getting kerosene to track down the valve guides but it didn't and also given the amount of smoke I was getting I was starting to think I was barking up the wrong tree. I did apply some copper gasket sealant as suggested in the above thread around the valve guide under the spring cup but was starting to realise I needed to check the pistons and rings.

I pulled the barrels off and checked the rings to see if they were upside down. They had no markings so I assumed they could be mounted either way. The ring gap was around 0.020 inch which was bigger than the manual said (0.010-0,014) but based on what I read here that isn't a big cause for concern.

I then looked a bit more closely at the barrels.



The barrels had been sleeved and the base of one of them had broken away. This left me wondering - do I really trust the bottom end of the bike?

So after much umming and arring I decide - I need to do this properly, split the cases, check the bottom end, redo it properly.






I have to admit Dave that whilst I am whinging and complaining... there is a part of me that is really enjoying it :). I like solving problems and whilst it is frustrating trying to get this bike right - it is also deeply engrossing.

Being shiny thought, has to help. I know all my bikes and cars tend to run better after a good wash and wax. So, just think how bad this bike would run if it were not all spiffy and bright.
that is a good point - I can only assume it wouldn't even have started, let alone been able to blow smoke :)

And to be honest, if this were my bike and I'd run into all the various cobbler fixes, I'd want to look at the conrods to make sure they are not all nicked up and just waiting to fail.
I have taken your advice... the engine is out as of yesterday

and almost immediately I have some questions I will need help on - but will save them for my next episode as everyone has probably gone to sleep after reading this far


Had to read this thread with such a great title! D'you get Liquorice Allsorts in Oz?
oh yeah!

A decent T120 should pull up any hill from a standstill better than many modern bikes. When you get it sorted out, I predict you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
That is reassuring - I figure there really is something wrong as many people I have talked to speak of how well these old girls perform.
 
#4 ·
First, I have to say that I truly enjoy your writing style and think you have the right attitude. Being able to laugh at yourself and any predicaments you get yourself into is a very healthy way to live.

I have to admit that I just read your last post, so forgive me if you have mentioned this elsewhere. Have you done a compression test on the engine? I think that might tell you quite a bit. My guess is you are way down on compression. I cannot imagine the bike being so lean that it will not go up your driveway and still run decently.

Being shiny thought, has to help. I know all my bikes and cars tend to run better after a good wash and wax. So, just think how bad this bike would run if it were not all spiffy and bright.

I'd run a compression test while you have the head on the bike. No sense putting a reconditioned head back on if you need to do something with the pistons/rings/jugs. It's a 5 minute job to pull the jugs once the head is off. And to be honest, if this were my bike and I'd run into all the various cobbler fixes, I'd want to look at the conrods to make sure they are not all nicked up and just waiting to fail.

Just think how much you will learn from this bike.;) Learning is the best part.

regards,
Rob
 
#5 ·
Had to read this thread with such a great title! D'you get Liquorice Allsorts in Oz?

I think Rob's advice is good. The builder was clearly a ham-fisted blunderer happy with the lowest possible quality of work, so I would echo Rob's caution to check things out below the pistons while you have the chance. He said he put new pistons in didn't he? But were they Triumph pistons?!

A decent T120 should pull up any hill from a standstill better than many modern bikes. When you get it sorted out, I predict you'll be very pleasantly surprised.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Interestinger and interestinger. Something is causing tons of oil to get into the left side combustion chamber, we know that. And it is extremely unlikely to be anything to do with the head, as this has just been sorted. That leaves coming up from below. I can see by one of your pics that it does have new pistons and they look like Triumph ones as well, which is something. They look incredibly clean considering its been running - I'd expect blackening from that much oil burning, but maybe you cleaned them before the pic was taken?

Haven't I seen that photo of the barrels before? If not, there was one extremely similar on here a couple of weeks ago. Whoever fitted the liners didn't do it properly - either the left cylinder's skirt was already smashed like that, in which case they shouldn;t have wasted time fitting a liner, or it was ok before they got their hands on it, and they broke it when doing the work. Either way, not the kind of work to be trusted, and I suspect this may be where the problem lies. I wonder whether the liner is so badly fitted it has gaps around it, up which oil is blowing? Maybe the whole thing is loose?

You've looked at the rings and they aren't broken and the gaps don't seem bad enough to cause anywhere near that much smoke (anyway, it would be smoking both sides if it was ring gaps causing it).

Maybe there's other damage to the barrels that hasn't been noticed yet? The gutlessness suggests severe lack of compression (and/or badly wrong valve timing, cams with lobes worn almost round etc - all this needs checking too).

Can I end this random ramble by asking a few questions, ie:

(a) Are those the barrels that were shown on another thread a couple of weeks ago? If so, are you persevering with them or getting a good set?
(b) Are you certain it is oil smoke? Seems a stupid question but worth being sure. You'll know by the smell.
(c) Assuming there's no doubt that it is oil smoke, let's rule out head problems given the work you've just had done and focus on the barrels and pistons. If that is the same photo shown recently, didn't someone on that thread mention a good engine shop somewhere not too far from you? Have you sought their opinion?

Maybe you've got it all sorted now and you're re-telling the whole tale from the beginning?

EDIT: Just found the original thread and moved it back near the top in case useful for reference.
 
#9 ·
thanks for the interest and suggestions - I appreciate the input - like I have previously mentioned - I am not a mechanic! (although am a tinkerer)

Haven't I seen that photo of the barrels before? If not, there was one extremely similar on here a couple of weeks ago.
...
(a) Are those the barrels that were shown on another thread a couple of weeks ago? If so, are you persevering with them or getting a good set?
(b) Are you certain it is oil smoke? Seems a stupid question but worth being sure. You'll know by the smell.
(c) Assuming there's no doubt that it is oil smoke, let's rule out head problems given the work you've just had done and focus on the barrels and pistons. If that is the same photo shown recently, didn't someone on that thread mention a good engine shop somewhere not too far from you? Have you sought their opinion?

Maybe you've got it all sorted now and you're re-telling the whole tale from the beginning?
Yep John, they are the barrels I had asked about here earlier.

Re the smoke - it is white and smells almost sweet and after escaping from its clutches I swear you can feel it on your skin a bit as an oily film as well.

The first posts in the tale have covered a fair bit of chronological time but now is up to date as of a few days ago.

My guess is this engine blew up at some point, or was built from used parts and the jugs came of an engine that cratered. But, given the thin section of the spigots that remain, I can see them fracturing if the sleeves were too tight or just because they were so thin.
this kind of raises my next question - do these photos indicate something relevant?





looking at the left and right side of the cases they seem to be not very good matches. I am wondering - is this normal or are they cases from 2 different motors?

If the later I think you are right about a previous engine catastrophe...


You never mentioned the seating surface on the rings. Take a look at those. My guess is you will see shiny spots and lots of dull, no contact areas, especially on the oil ring(s).

I can see the hone marks on the bores. Granted, the depth of field makes the bore surface a bit fuzzy. But that surface looks like a fairly fine grit hone was used. That could very well contribute to the rings not seating.
re the rings - I need to check them, I have to admit in my ignorance I didn't really examine them for shiny/dull spots. I do recall they felt quite 'sharp' edged.

As for the hone marks - after I had removed the barrels I ran a hone through them as I was thinking maybe they hadn't been properly honed when the pistons were previously fitted.

After seeing the damage to the bottom I am thinking of just ditching them and finding an alternative (possibly even a big bore kit - will decide once I have had a closer look at the bottom of the motor).


I think I'd be calling the Tartaglia brothers and having them pay a visit to the guy who sold the bike to you. When they are done, he might offer to help pay for the repairs.;)
A while ago I went to a parts shop (Trojan Motorcycles) that specialise in older parts and described the bike and its problems.

They asked me who I bought it off. I described the bloke's appearance (I had never got his last name) and the two fellas at the counter looked at each other. One of them asked - "was he really hard of hearing?" Yep I said. Almost simultaneously they both exclaimed "Deaf Mick!" and one of them covered his eyes with his hand.

Apparently "Deaf Mick" is well known for patching up bikes so they run and look roughly presentable for quick sale to silly drongos like me. They didn't actually say 'drongo' but I knew what they were thinking :)
 
#8 ·
I'm going to start on a high note here and mention how informed you will be about Triumph engines when you have this old girl back together and running properly.

My guess is this engine blew up at some point, or was built from used parts and the jugs came of an engine that cratered. But, given the thin section of the spigots that remain, I can see them fracturing if the sleeves were too tight or just because they were so thin.

In my limited experience, with major oil consumption, the tops of the pistons tend to stay clean since they are drenched in oil. The detergents in today's oils may contribute to that. My '66 that was an insect fogger after the first rebuilt also had very shiny piston tops.

You never mentioned the seating surface on the rings. Take a look at those. My guess is you will see shiny spots and lots of dull, no contact areas, especially on the oil ring(s).

I can see the hone marks on the bores. Granted, the depth of field makes the bore surface a bit fuzzy. But that surface looks like a fairly fine grit hone was used. That could very well contribute to the rings not seating.

I would take the jugs to the shop that did your head. Sounds like they do quality work. Ask them to measure the bore in both jugs. You want to know what the piston to bore clearance is, just because it will tell you what kind of quality job was done, and you also want to know if the bores are round. If possible, ask if they can set the jugs up on a flat surface and determine if the bores are perpendicular to the gasket surfaces. The sleeves could be installed cock-eyed.

You might be looking at a new set of jugs. Are the pistons standard size or an oversize. If they are standard or one of the first oversizes, and the bores are not round or perpendicular, the shop may be able to rebore those sleeves to correct any abnormality.

If they are straight and round, given the clearance to the piston, you might very well get away with honing them with a 180 grit hone in a proper honing machine. Put new Hastings rings on the pistons and slap her back together.

The end gap on the piston is not a concern. That clearance is common with the rings made today. My friend Lance has talked to Hastings and they said it is fine. Mr. Pete has also said the gap is not a big deal if it is a tad oversize.

You are smart to split the cases. The old adage about a good foundation being important for any structure rings true in engines as well.

You will need some special tooling to pull the timing gears off as well as the alternator rotor. Maybe this is something best left to your local shop. If they will work with you, they might do the specialty stuff like pulling the gears and then give the engine back to you to continue on. Same on reassembly.

Plan on going into the tranny as well. It's not hard and might as well make sure there are no issues left behind in there, either.

I think I'd be calling the Tartaglia brothers and having them pay a visit to the guy who sold the bike to you. When they are done, he might offer to help pay for the repairs.;)

Keep smiling. It will soon be all good stuff.

regards,
Rob
 
#10 ·
If you want to know whether the crankcases are matching halves, turn them upside down and look at the lug through which the bottom engine mounting bolt passes. There should be a number stamped on each half of that lug. If the numbers match, the cases match. You can't tell by the appearance of the halves at the front - they more often than not look mis-matched there. Even those small letters often don;t match though the cases do, so have a look underneath.

This is a bit of a side issue at this stage though isn't it? Even if they are non-matching cases, it wouldn't explain the smokescreen and the gutlessness. Returning to that, have you arranged to have the engine inspected by that shop Carny recommended, or another one known to be good with old Triumphs? I think that should be your next step. They can meausure and see for real, all we can do is look at a few photos and guess.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for that John - I will check the numbers out.

You are quite right - the cases are not what are the cause of the smoke or lack of power but if they don't match then it would make me (even) more uncomfortable about simply bolting on a new set of barrels and pistons without looking a lot closer at the bottom end.

I want to establish as much as I can if it is mostly just a bag of mismatched bits or a motor worth rebuilding before I start shelling out the readies. Plus I am in this for the experience as well :)

The fact that it blew smoke with the old head also blew smoke with the newly reconditioned head means I am strongly suspecting the barrels/pistons/rings are going to be likely culprits rather than the head.

I have decided if I go ahead with the motor I will ditch those cylinders anyway so I am not that fussed about getting them sorted.

I had a look at the shop Carny mentioned. I am keeping them in mind if I will need any machining work - good to get a recommendation from someone who has used them.

They are 60km away from where I am and not a specialist Triumph shop but sound well regarded and do a lot of specialised drag race engines etc so aren't mugs.

As for other Triumph specialist shops around here - the one I used to deal with no longer does work - only parts now and recently has moved several hundred kms away and the only other 'old' Triumph one I know in Sydney gave me a 'rough' quote of $800 labour to strip the motor to the point they could quote what it would cost to repair any problems (and would also charge the time to re-assemble if I wanted it returned back together as delivered to them).

I figure my labour costs are pretty competitive even if I do take 5 times as long as a pro.


That said, I am interested if anyone knows of reputable 'old' Triumph specialists in the Sydney area (just so long as their name isn't Mick and are hard of hearing that is...)

Anyway my take is - why not do as much of this as I can? And enjoy myself. I already have a bike that I can ride so it is not that I am in a hurry.

And I enjoy the challenges. Even if I do whinge and swear a bit :D
 
#12 ·
Yes, its good to tackle as much as poss yourself, that way you'll really learn what makes your engine tick (and smoke!). I'd say it is essential to check the bottom end thoroughly, including cleaning out the sludge tube, now you've got this far. If it was mine, I'd want to check those barrels/liners/pistons out to try to understand what's been causing the smoking. I would most certainly not re-use them. Rambo's suggestion of a 750 kit seems very sensible - you know what you're getting quality-wise with a Morgo kit, whereas I've heard that some of the new standard barrels on sale aren't too good. Plus you'll have a more powerful engine.

Non-matching cases won't necessarily mean the engine isn't worth rebuilding. From a certain year the factory stopped machining them as a pair in any case, but theoretically, the bearing housings should still be in line within tolerances. I can't remember which year but I'm fairly sure it was before 1971 - Mr Pete knows but he hasn't been on here for a while, hope he's ok) If you find a good engineering shop, maybe that's something they could check?
 
#13 ·
If it was mine, I'd want to check those barrels/liners/pistons out to try to understand what's been causing the smoking. I would most certainly not re-use them.
I think you are right - establishing the cause would make a lot of sense.

What sort of things should I look for here?

I have looked at the rings - the outsides are not so much shiny as 'satiny' but it appears any black coating they had has worn off around the outside where the ring contacts the barrel and the surface appearance is quite uniform rather than patchy.

NB the engine however has not been run more than about 20 minutes since I got it and not much of that time was high revs.

(I managed to ride it around the block once but it felt very weak - almost as if in second gear rather than first).

I am thinking the other thing to check for is if the bores are not true - maybe elliptical?

I have some telescopic gauges and a micrometer. I measured the bores initially with a few measurements top and bottom and they appeared to match the standard size (if anything slightly under standard - averaging around 2.7944 from memory rather than the 2.9748 in the manual.

If I want to check if the bores may not be true - I guess doing lots of repeat bore measurements across 90 degree angles and seeing how consistent they are will tell me this?

The hone marks in the cylinders were not very coarse to my (untrained) eye - they were there but looked quite fine.

As a consequence when I first removed the barrels I ran a hone through them a few times thinking it was worth a shot before I really looked too hard at the bottom of the liners.

I have no idea if my honing would've made a difference since I then decided the barrel wasn't worth persevering with.

Any other things I might look at to try and identify a cause for the smoking?

I still need to look at the cams and valve timing to see if that may be causing the gutlessness but that will be easier when I start attacking the bottom of the motor (strictly weekend work once other duties attended too so I tend to work slowly).


The idea of a big bore kit is tempting (assuming the motor is worth salvaging).
 
#14 ·
Based on the description of Deaf Mick, he may very well have put the engine together with old rings and pistons since you have found the bores to be standard. I would think that used rings for standard bore are something a cobbler like him has an unlimited supply of.

It's hard to give you a "how to build/inspect and engine" instruction here. I'd suggest you read thru the manual and do some searches here for more info. There have been lots of discussions on all the various pieces of an engine rebuild. Mr. Pete has provided tons of info based on his experience so if you just do a search for his posts, you'll probably find lots of good stuff.

I started a collection of valve train info from the experts that I keep on my hard drive for future reference. I put it a version of it in tips and tricks section. Also, in there is a sticky title building a bullet proof T140. I would read that thread as well as go thru that entire section for info that will help educate you.

I learned a new word today, drongo. Had to look it up on the web. I know a few of those. I don't think you fit the description. You were perhaps a bit to trusting or uninformed. But we all are at one point in our lives until we grow older, wiser and become cynical old bastards that would not trust Mother Teresa if she was selling a used Triumph.

regards,

Rob
 
#16 ·
Here's a brief follow-up: In my genuinely humble opinion, you;re not doing yourself any favours by claiming not to be a mechanic when you clearly have above average mechanical ability and equipment. Unless " mechanic" is another word that has quite a differnet meaning in Oz to UK? I'm thinking of the reverse situation, where in UK anyone who can mend a washing machine calls themselves an engineer - also, anyone who can fit a new air filter to a car can call themselves a mechanic. And a lot of UK "mechanics" wouldn't know how to use a micrometer or telescopic gauge, or take a triumph engine apart.

Maybe if you clarify your abilities it could help us to know what level to speak to when replying? Just a thought.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I think something is getting lost in translation - not uncommon on internet forums. If you think I have been trying something on here I am really sorry and have not meant that at all.

I firmly describe myself as "not a mechanic". I am self taught tinkerer - a lot learnt while working in the bush trying to keep old machinery going with few tools limited parts and no training.

I guess I am what is called a 'shade tree mechanic' over here.

A shade tree mechanic can be a hazard because they (like me) often don't know what they don't know and hence I want no one to make any assumptions about my abilities - because you can't. And I want to learn. If I pretend to be above my abilities I am going to get myself into trouble.

I see a problem - I look up the internet and this forum and You Tube and make some guesses, buy some tools and try stuff. (I had no idea what telescopic gauges were ($20 on ebay) or how to measure a bore until 3 weeks ago - would you call someone like that a mechanic? (or more to the point - would you let them loose near your bike? :D)

Please I have no experience with Triumph bikes other than basic maintenance on the new Hinkley ones and what I have so far learnt tinkering with this one and am here to learn not wind anyone up (I have been a member of the forum for several years including until recently as a moderator on the other parts of the forum so am not having a go.

I can use tools (most people who have worked in the bush can) and I think I am reasonably handy but there is no way I would say I am a mechanic and will have glaring gaps in my knowledge.

Basically a mixture of knowledge, ignorance, unfounded bravado about diving in where I shouldn't and unfounded timidity about tackling things that are actually within my reach.

All in all - please treat me as a keen tinkerer not as a mechanic. I am here to both learn and document what I have done.

Does that make sense? I am appreciating the input I have got so far. I am here to learn not teach and am here for a good time not to annoy anyone.

If I have my sincere apologies - it was not meant that way.
 
#18 ·
Fair enough, sorry! But if you read back through this and the other thread I hope you might see why I thought it seemed a bit strange. It's written as if it's a running commentary, more or less concurrent with the events - I gleaned no idea your were going back at least two years. To me, stressing I AM NOT A MECHANIC looks like it means you are pretty much a complete novice, which you're clearly not. If I can offer any helpful suggestions I'll be glad to but my most helpful one for the time being has to be, take those barrels to a decent engineer (mechanic!) and get them looked at. And do take the rest of the engine to bits and check everything. Those bore measurements look miles out (.180" or 4.5mm out anyway, which is miles if I understand what you're measuring correctly).

Anyway, good luck with it, whatever you decide to do.
 
#19 ·
Look - no worries, I can see what has happened - looking back at the thread I can see now whilst I mentioned at the start I bought the bike several years ago I didn't make it clear the events it then describes cover several years.

That was clear in my head as I was writing it - just not in my words :(

I often tend to describe all events when writing (past, present and future) using the present tense and reading it again I can see how it could easily be misinterpreted.

Apologies for misleading anyone - not my intention - I was assuming that it was understood much was an historical fill in however I clearly didn't convey that in my words.

(I just went back to try and edit my opening post to make it clear the initial bits are a recount over several years but unfortunately the edit window for the post has expired and I can't change it - if a mod wants to do that feel free to add that at the start.)

Anyway to clarify:

I bought the bike back in 2011. The early posts cover several years of occasional bursts of activities in a summarised form to bring the story up to date.

Where it is at now - I have pulled the barrels off - seen the damage at the base of the cylinders and have removed the engine and have ordered the tools the manual states are needed to dismantle the bottom end.

And also - I am open and happy for advice - please keep it coming it is appreciated (and what I am here for).

Cheers all - Jon
 
#20 ·
Now you are in that deep,all new bearings will be a good investment.It is a pity that the bike did not run as a good 650,as you will not appreciate just how much more pull,a 750 kit gives you.Keep asking before breaking anything.Someone here will know a devious way of removing that stuck part.I am just waiting to see you get the roller bearing track out of the case.Normally a special tool but there is a simple way that costs nothing.Also,special care needed to get the needle roller bearings in the right place in the gearbox.
 
#21 ·
cheers Rambo.

big newbie mistake - I removed the engine from the frame before cracking the clutch/cam/crank bolts (I didn't read the manual :( - yep - no excuse).

Have now done that and also watched Caulky's (Lunmad's) videos on 650 bottom end overhaul (great resource for someone like me) and realised I goofed.

Is it feasible to run a rod through the little ends of the cranks to lock the motor or is that likely to do damage?

or should I put the engine back and add chain etc so I can use rear wheel/brake? (or is there a better way to lock the crank for disassembly)
 
#22 ·
Yep, a rod through the con rod small ends will work. I use pieces of wood to protect the top of the cases. An impact wrench will also work.
 
#29 · (Edited)
that worked, cheers:


I also made this up (after I had removed the primary sprocket and clutch basket I hadn't thought about the gearbox :()
I put the clutch basket back on and used this to lock the shaft:

I sacrificed a clutch plate to make this - the clutch always stuck so badly I was planning on putting new plates in anyway. When I removed the plates they all came out as a single unit as they were so stuck together.

I had trouble getting the spacer/washer inside the clutch hub out - it would happily move towards the end of the shaft but stopped fast before it would come out.

There is damage to the hub right at the opening and when I ran my finger around the inside I could feel a sharp ridge at the opening that was stopping the washer coming out. I ended up having to gently file the lip down before I could remove the washer.

I am assuming the damage indicates the woodruff key has sheared at some point? (You can see the little magnets I was using to pull the washer out)



The washer under the nut was badly mangled.


Also the basket has some wear marks - is this acceptable if I clean these up? (or should I look at getting a new basket?)




Getting the gearbox out was illuminating. Deaf Mick's parting words were - "oh yeah - you probably will need to check the gearbox oil at some point - it may be a bit low".

When I went to drain the gearbox, only a few drops came out. :confused:

When I removed the gearbox this is the oil level I found:


He was right - it was a bit low...
 
#23 ·
Hey jonkster if you are stuck for a local triumph expert give norm a ring at SOVEREIGN CLASSIC he ran the workshop at jim eades back when max owned it in the 90s and now works from home , he is at macquarie fields ph, 0400 468 043 , he is well regarded in the classic scene. goodluck
 
#24 ·
Hey thanks Carny that is worth knowing. Cheers.


Jim Eades shop (then "Classic All Parts" as it became) was just down the road from me until about a month ago.

Now all closed up - Classic Allparts have moved down to the Southern Tablelands - a small bit of history gone :( that shop must've been around for ever - I remember going past it as a kid and I ain't no kid anymore!)
 
#25 ·
dumb question... what size socket fits the crankshaft timing side pinion nut?

(part E4565 or 70-4565)

My 1-1/16 socket is just too small to fit and my 1-1/8 feels too loose to be safe without rounding the nut.

I am guessing 1-3/32 but I don't have one and Repco/SuperCheap Auto etc don't seem to stock such a beast.

The nut looks a little butchered which may explain why my 1-1/16 doesn't fit but I want to make sure I am using the right socket in case I make matters worse.
 
#47 ·
dumb question... what size socket fits the crankshaft timing side pinion nut?

(part E4565 or 70-4565)

My 1-1/16 socket is just too small to fit and my 1-1/8 feels too loose to be safe without rounding the nut.
As Snakeoil suggested - it was Whitworth - a set of Whitworth sockets finally arrived tonight (I found some 6 sided ones on EBay) and it is a perfect fit for a 5/8 Whitworth socket.

Crankshaft nut now undone! :)

I mistakenly thought that by the time of the 71 OIF all the Whitworth stuff had been replaced by SAE but at least as far as the crankshaft this not necessarily the case.

In case anyone else gets stuck at this point on a 1971, I found some discussion elsewhere that said the early 1971 Cranks had a Whitworth thread and used nut #70-4565 and later cranks had a SAE thread and used nut #71-2877.
 
#26 ·
I don't remember the answer, but you can probably find the nut in the British Only e-catalog and they often tell you the size of threaded fasteners. If it turns out to be Whitworth and you do not have the correct size Whitworth wrench, try a metric wrench/socket. Others have mentioned this before and I've had good luck with it. A 6 point socket is also another option. More contact surface and less apt to slip. I'm a big fan of 6 point sockets.

regards,
Rob
 
#28 ·
If it turns out to be Whitworth and you do not have the correct size Whitworth wrench, try a metric wrench/socket. Others have mentioned this before and I've had good luck with it.
thanks Rob that I think put me on the right track - I did some hunting around and took some measurements - across the flats the nut is 1.10" which corresponds to a Whitworth 5/8" (or a 28mm metric) according to
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DxcS6D4kK0s/TeZxTj4HE0I/AAAAAAAAAC4/tFrLEGJOPAg/s1600/Jaw+Gap+Conversion+Chart.jpg.

(Don't know if that table is any use to anyone but thought it is worth putting here just in case)

28mm metrics are not that common (my local auto supplies only have 27mm and 30mm), so I will hunt around and buy some Whitworth sockets.

One day I will manage to get these cases open!

I've added a slight edit to the original post, at the request of jonkster
Thanks Paul - that clears up any misunderstandings :)

cheers

Jon
 
#30 ·
Gearbox

Looking at the dogs on most of the gears they seem rounded and worn.

I am guessing these are not good? :(







How about the cam plate? I am not sure what to look for here - what things go wrong with these and how do you check?

 
#31 ·
Looking at the bits I just realised the clutch basket has 3 rows of sockets but it is running a duplex primary chain (and my parts book indicates it should only have 2 rows of sprokets).

I am guessing this is a T140 basket?

If so is it unusual to have a triplex basket in a 1971 T120? (and could it cause any issues?)
 
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