Rob's (SnakeOil) 1966 T120R resto - Page 18 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
» Main Menu

Discussion Forums
 » Twins
 » Tiger
 » General
 » RAT

Features
 » Blogs

Motorcycle.com Links

Contribute
 » Photo

Motorcycle Forums
» Insurance
» Sponsors
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games

Member's Restoration & Rebuild Projects Details of member's own projects.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2012, 07:49 AM   #171 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: T140 E
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Reading Berks UK
Posts: 5,107
Other Motorcycle: 56 Plunger Tatty Cub
Extra Motorcycle: CZ winter bike
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rocker-Spi...item2a267b8b99


I've posted this as the seller would seem to indicate that even with the correct tool ( and is a pattern part ever the same?) you need a load of O rings to get it right
DAVE M is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-01-2012, 05:46 PM   #172 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Thanks Dave. I've never actually seen one of the tools. Just machined one based on how I thought it should be configured.

I've been playing with other stuff, brought home yet another vintage bike (it's a disease for sure) and sorting out personal issues since this was my last week at work. I might go back and try the tool again, even though Healy says it is useless.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-02-2012, 06:26 PM   #173 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Success!!!

Patience, persistence and noodling something eccessively often pays off. Well, it did again today.

I wanted to give the rocker spindle o-rings one more shot before I truly snatched defeat from the jaws of success. I tried using the tool again, but this time tried to compress the o-ring into the tool from the other end, basically emulating what others have given as the process to coax the o-ring into the rockerbox with small tools. I used my finger nail since nothing was in the way and it is virtually impossible to get the ring into the tool that way. And I have to say that my thumbnail is probably the best tool you could use in that situation.

I tend to think that Healy and others have success with that procedure because the hole in the rockerbox is bigger. Johns said there is as 2 mil clearance between the cap and box. But on mine, the cap has a 1 to 2 mil interference fit with the rockerbox.

So, I had a moment of lucidity and thought that if tapping the spindle into the tapered end of the tool did not work, what about pressing it in smoothly and slowling into the tool. I also tried some extruding oil that I got from Buchanan's with my new stainless spokes. I put the tool in my lathe chuck with a new o-ring on the spindle cap and then used the tailstock and a 5/8" dowel to slowly press the spindle into the tool and compress the o-ring. IT WORKED!! No snipped ring of rubber. Took the tool over to the rockerbox and tapped the spindle into the box and it went in perfectly. No sheared rubber of any sort.

So, I'm not sure if it was the extruding oil, using a pressing technique instead of tapping or the combination of both, but it worked like a champ. Regardless, I'm happy.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2012, 07:12 AM   #174 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: '77 Bonneville T140V
 
Garioch43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 999
Hooray!

__________________


Sam Murray

Aberdeen, Scotland
Garioch43 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2012, 08:14 AM   #175 (permalink)
Senior Member
World SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 1970 Bonneville
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dearborn, Michigan
Posts: 2,143
Rob, congratulations on your success! Step by step photos would make a great tutorial that explains how to solve this troublesome procedure.
henryanthony is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-03-2012, 01:30 PM   #176 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Unfortunately, with the rockerboxes assembled, I'm not about to take them apart to shoot pictures of the process. So, here's a sketch that shows the bits all lined up for installation. Here's the step by step.

Install o-ring on spindle cap
Lubricate tool and spindle cap with oil, P-80 rubber lube, extrusion oil, STP, whatever you have.
Using a manual arbor press, drill press, lathe, PRESS the spindle into tool slowly until the inboard end of the cap starts to appear out the end of the tool.

Lube the spindle with motor oil insert into the rockerbox with the rocker arms, thrust washers and thackeray washers already installed, aligned and properly lubed.
With tool up tight against the rockerbox, tap the spindle home with a wood dowel or similar non-marring rod and hammer.

Notes: The nose of the tool should be machined to match the angle of the chamfer on the rockerbox. This is normally a 60 deg included angle, but you should measure to be sure. You can leave a knife edge on the nose of the tool, but I suggest you machine a 1/64 - 1/32 flat to keep it from crushing during the tapping process.

The taper inside the tool is about 6 degrees. The straight bore section is a line fit to 0.001 larger than the diameter of the spindle cap. Put put both spindles thru the tool without an o-ring and it will swage the tool to the proper size if it is a tad tight.

Keep in mind that the rocker box chamfer might not be square to the bore and this might cause it to shear a bit off the o-ring. If that happens, take it apart and try again. I ended up buying a dozen o-rings to figure out the process. Hopefully this will mean you won't need as many.



regards,
Rob

Last edited by Snakeoil; 12-03-2012 at 10:15 PM.
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-07-2012, 05:28 PM   #177 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
If you are following posts in the general forum, you'll see I've had a few questions regarding PRT seals and bent head bolts. Got that sorted out and went out today to finally put the head and rockerboxes on the engine. But it was not to be.

After getting the inlet rockerbox on, I put the first of the two top rockerbox bolts in place and they did not feel right. I had cleaned everything on this head last summer so I knew it was ready to go. I then peered into one of the threaded holes for the exhaust rockerbox and that thread looks funny. I put a bolt in it and it goes in hard. As I back it out, about 1/8" of thread from the head is on the bolt. Grrrrrrrrr...

Bottom line is it appears that the threads in all those holes were on their last legs. Once had been helicoiled in 1/4-28 and looks like I'm going to do the other three tomorrow. It's not work just fixing one or two. Might as well do them all. This means I now have to duplicate my fake Brit rockerbox bolt 3 more times or see if I can take the originals and run them thru a 1/4 28 die and make them SAE without screwing up the threads. I know what I'm proposing is not correct and I was a Class A machinist in my younger years. But it just might work because the pitches are very close. I believe 26 TPI versus 28. Might try it on a spare bolt rather than screw up one of those unique bolts. Someone else might be able to use them.

This is getting to be more like a soap opera than a motorcycle restoration thread. Ths is why I hate long term restos like this. You can never be 100% sure if you did everything you wanted or intended to do over such a long period.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-09-2012, 12:50 PM   #178 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
I've decided that my last two posts and a few before that were more like whiney Faceschnook entries. My apologies for that. I plan to keep things 100 technical and restoration oriented from here forward.

The PRT seal issue is resolved and I learned a bit more today that I'll share here.

The wedding band seal retainer, which is from later models, is meant to be used with a bottom seal that is larger in OD. I realized that when I went to assemble the head today after repairing the stripped rockerbox threads mentioned previously. The OD of the '66 seals, which are the same, top and bottom is 1-3/16". It appears a previous rebuild used later bottom seals and the matching wedding bands instead of the '66 seals and cups. Since I have a '66 gasket kit from Coventry Spares, it has the '66 seals. I measured the bottom seals that came out of the engine and they measure a nominal 1-1/4". The ID of the wedding band is also 1-1/4". So when the seal expands the ring will retain it. But with a 1/16" of diametral clearance between the '66 ring and the wedding band, I'm sure the seal would eventually extrude out and leak.

I measured the free space between the PRT and the head/block by assembling the head with head gasket and PRTs without seals and finger tightened the outside 4 head bolts. The free space front and rear, which is shown in the pictures below measured 0.165". I then measured two '66 seals and got 0.190" for a 0.025 crush. I used a thicker bottom seal with a '66 top seal and together they measured 0.220" which would give a 0.055" crush, which is too much based on the manual and experts such as Mr. Pete.

If you consider the thickness of the cup bottom flange, which the wedding band lacks, that will add to the crush since it reduces the free space beween the PRT and the head/block. So, when I obtain and install the correct cup under the bottom seal, I expect I will have the required 0.030"-0.040" crush.

Exhaust PRT free space


Intake PRT free space


So, the bottom line here is you should not mix and match late model sealing parts with early model sealing parts. They are meant to work as a system and mixing defeats that. This is even more apparent if you look at later model PRTs whic use o-rings.

regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2012, 07:54 PM   #179 (permalink)
Senior Member
Team Owner
Main Motorcycle: The one between my legs
 
Snakeoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,779
Other Motorcycle: A few
Extra Motorcycle: Yes
Making "headway".

Head is on!

Today, went to see Steve at M&S and picked up a couple of PRT seal cups.

The cups measure 0.015" thick so when added to the crush measured without them, which was 0.025", that brings the total crush up to 0.040" which is at the top of the spec. Very pleased with the outcome, although it was more of a challenge getting here than I had anticipated. Most of the delay was driven by somebody using later model parts as mentioned previously.

With the head on, I installed the new socket head valve lash adjustors with the original nuts.

Then decided to take a break from assembly and spruce up the rockerbox inspection caps. They were a bit beat up so I pushed the displaced metal back where it belonged along the slots with a small hammer, then made a HDPE collar so I could hold the covers in my lathe by the treads and went to work on them. First was a quick smoothing with 220 grit paper and then bead blasted them for a nice uniform finish. Then back in the lathe and started polishing with various grades of sand paper, ending in Emery paper. Hit them with a little Mother's alum polish and a paper towel while still in the lathe and then finished them off on the buffing wheel. The slots are still far from perfect, but with the high polish, it is not that noticeable.

I had ordered new Inspection cap Locking Springs, but did not like how they fit. Hole was closer to the rear edge than OEM. But then I compared them and could see that the OEM would stack nicely on top of the new ones and provide twice as much locking force. So I installed a stacked pair for each inspection cover.

The top two rockerbox bolt are now grade 5, 1/4"-28 SAE bolts since I had to helicoil the head. Original bolts were a special bolt with a smaller size hex that is twice as tall. I may eventually make a set of bolts to emulate the OEM bolts. But for now, bolts from my stock will suffice. I machined 4 each 1/4" washers from standard washers and zinc plated them to match the boss diameter on the rockerbox, provide full contact and no chance of digging into and dishing the aluminum bolt face on the rockerboxes.

Here are pics of the finished work.

Double lock springs on the rockerbox Inspection Caps. Fiber washers compliments of the local hardware store.



1/4"-28 Grade 5 bolts and reduced OD washers for the rockerboxes.



Here's the engine in the frame. Yeah, I know, lots of engine pictures. It's just that it looks so GOOOOOOOOOOOOD back together and in the frame.



regards,
Rob
Snakeoil is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-12-2012, 09:22 PM   #180 (permalink)
Senior Member
SuperBike
Main Motorcycle: 2012 Speed Triple R
 
tealetm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,634
Extra Motorcycle: 1995 Speed Triple
Looking good Rob!
__________________
Travis
Albany, NY
tealetm is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1966 T120R Project hudson29 The Welcome Center 3 03-07-2011 08:16 PM
Max Carby Size For 1966 T120R.... Rev Classic, Vintage & Veteran 7 07-19-2010 08:41 AM
Rebuild by a rookie - David's 71 T120R resto/mod david_in_ky Member's Restoration & Rebuild Projects 35 01-28-2010 08:59 AM
Just Acquired 1966 T120R Jeremy391D Classic, Vintage & Veteran 9 06-17-2009 04:44 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:09 AM.



Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0