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NGK Sparkplugs "NGK"

6K views 56 replies 7 participants last post by  CharlieS 
#1 ·
Ok,
Which one of you hooligans jinxed me with the NGK spark plugs?

I noticed a miss after getting well warmed up Friday evening, and she did it again this morning going to work, after getting off the highway.

I guess I'll be moving on to Autolite.
 
#2 ·



...sorry Charlie, I resisted as long as I humanly could - almost 1.2 seconds - must be a world record :D
 
#3 ·
^^^ yeah, yeah, yeah.... it's a tough room....

I got the Autolite 4163 sparkplugs installed late this afternoon. One thing that I liked about them straight away was that the hex was a couple more millimeters off the bottom than the NGK's were. My 6pt socket didn't get bound in the plugwell on the center cylinder like it did with the NGK.
So if you're one of the "lucky" ones who has clearance issues with 18mm sockets on the hex of the sparkplug, these Autolite plugs should help that.

Cheers!
 
#4 ·
I'd assume if I picked up a miss with no other changes that I got some bad fuel... not that a plug went bad. In fact, I've only ever had 1 plug go back in 27 years of motoring. I've replaced lots cause they had wear on them... but actually failed and caused a problem? 1.

That said, I do like Autolite plugs. They get a lot of crap cause they're not expensive enough, or, rather, that they have inexpensive product lines (along with the iridium and multi-electrode and what not). We ran their race plugs in our miata and rx7 race cars. Other guys had $20 plugs. Ours were like $2. We won the same $5 Trophies they did...

Scott
 
#5 ·
I'd assume if I picked up a miss with no other changes that I got some bad fuel... not that a plug went bad.
Scott
I get what you're saying. But, bad fuel will give you a miss straight away. This miss doesn't develop until after the engine gets fully hot. And then it's only off idle that it misses. I went thru this a couple months ago, and changing out the plugs fixed it. What I think is happening is the copper core in that NGK plug, for whatever reason, is cracking, fracturing. When the plug is cold, the crack/fracture is closed. When the plug heats up, the crack/fracture opens up. At low rpms, with less output at the generator, this fracture causes a miss. Above 3K, there's enough energy in the ignition to overcome the miss.
At any rate, the new plugs cleared up the miss.
 
#6 ·
Interesting. My failure was the exact opposite. Plug had cracked porcelain and didn't fire/fire well till it got warm. Car ran like crap till warm and then fine after that. Just more proof that every part actually does matter, and not every failure follows the same pattern.

I wonder if, since its a recurring error, you actually have a breakdown in a coil or lead that you're pinching back together just right when you work on the plugs. Or maybe a broken wire in a harness somewhere that gets brushed/bumped when you've got the tank off and are in there.

Wasn't it you who posted about fixing an issue like this by addressing electrical load?

Scott
 
#7 ·
I thought I had done exactly that with the exact same problem. But it was mid February I think and the weather was cooler. That particular day I thought I found the problem, I didn't have my heated jacket plugged in, and the bike ran fine on the way home. Well, as it turned out, it wasn't the load. The bike never got hot enough to cause the problem. I bought a new battery, put it in, had great voltage, and had the problem come right back when it got hot enough. It was very frustrating.
 
#9 ·
Hmm...
I've switched over to NGK in all of my small engines as well as the bikes. Much better than Champion, especially in the mowers and blowers. Honestly didn't know that autolite even still existed! Used to have those in our old chevy doodlebug for about 30 years and never changed.
When you were having the misfire, did you ever put an induction timing light on your wires, or move coils or wires to see if the problem moved with them? I have never had any issues with the NGK plugs either, so it just makes me curious. Are your coils and plug wires still stock?
 
#10 ·
If NGK consistently made bad plugs they wouldn't be in the plug business after all these years.
If Champion consistently made bad plugs they wouldn't be in the plug business after all these years.
If Autolite (Denso, Bosch, insert favorite or least favorite plug type here) consistently made bad plugs they wouldn't be in the plug business after all these years.

Everyone has a bad day once in a while, and once your children leave home you have very little control over what happens to them.

TMSAISTI
 
#11 ·
Ok, this is getting personal.
Not with this board or any individuals, but with the bike, the gremlins, fate, or whatever.
Yesterday on the way home, the bike started plying up fits again. She's fine when cold, but after heating up, she misses down low like she's running out of gas. And when it acts up, like at a stop light, I can definitely feel a cylinder dropping out. I pulled the Autolites, went out and put a new set of NGK's in, and she starts missing bad when she gets hot. This is embarrassing. I left the bike at home today. Plug wires all ohmed out the same, couldn't get an open circuit flexing the wires. Plug wire connections are in good shape. I guess I'll try swapping out the Ignetech igniter first (only because it's easier) then if that's not it, the coils. Soul help me, if my Nology coils are bad, I'm going to be p*ssed.
Why can't "what fixed it before" fix it now? @#$%^&*()_!
 
#12 ·
You poor bugger Charlie. I know how it feels chasing problems that defy logic - it sucks.

Wasn't "missing when warm" a symptom of the crank sensor? I think I'd check the coils first though, start with #3.
 
#13 ·
When my crank sensor failed, the ignition went completely dead when she got hot. Then I'd have to wait about 20-30 minutes to cool down before she would run again. Oddly enough, I had the same crank sensor failure happen on my daughter Jeep Cherokee, and it behaved in exactly the same way.
I guess the first time with this ignition problem, it was the plugs. They were old, about 15K miles on them. This time, it's something different. But it's acting just the same...

If it turns out to be the coils, I might go the plug coil route.
Thanks for the support, Arfer!
 
#14 ·
If its coils, I'd encourage you to try the COP Route. Less expensive and rules out the plug wires.

My experience with the crank sensor mirrors yours, happened on both my 900s the same way. Fine till warm them like a light switch.

How's your alternator? Maybe the regulator is going bad and its not charging well when it warms up. Have you checked charge when its warm?

Scott
 
#15 ·
Hey Scott!
I did that a while ago on the previous occurrence and it was fine, but it sure wouldn't hurt to do it again.
 
#16 ·
Before you change anything else, get a volt meter on the positive side of the coil to ground while it's acting up. And, remember Lucas' law of motorcycle repair: "90% of all ignition problems are carburetion..."

Oh, and throw a set of Champion plugs in it for good measure! ;)
 
#19 ·
Before you change anything else, get a volt meter on the positive side of the coil to ground while it's acting up. And, remember Lucas' law of motorcycle repair: "90% of all ignition problems are carburetion..."

Oh, and throw a set of Champion plugs in it for good measure! ;)
Now I have visions of a rider going down the road, off on the right side of the bike, standing both feet on the right side footpeg, throttle in the right hand, voltmeter strapped to the tank, other hand and face down under the edge of the tank with VOM probe stuck in the coil connector.

>:)
 
#18 · (Edited)
I found my spare parts to use to troubleshoot the TBS.



And look what else I found...


Yatzee!

Those are off my 02 Sprint ST. I wonder if they will do the trick if I find the Nology coils are bad.

If the weather will clear up, I'll have something to play with.

Sorry, can't play with Champion spark plugs. I don't have any. I am physically unable to ask for them. But I have a half dozen NGK's and a half dozen Autolites that I'm pretty sure are all good.
 
#21 ·
Unlikely it needs to be rewound. Brushes and regulator are the most common problems.

You've changed so many ignition components maybe it's time to broaden your horizons...

I have a half dozen NGK's and a half dozen Autolites that I'm pretty sure are all good.
If they're so good, how come you have so many? ;)
 
#22 ·
Spare components.
At least I know what isn't wrong...
 
#23 · (Edited)
I had #3 cylinder crap out on me a few years back, it was the airfilter box banging against the inside terminal post of the #3 coil, causing a bad contact. But I believe you have pods so it rules that out.

Are you still sure it's electrical? Might be time to pull the carbs Charlie :dunno

Edit: What do the plugs look like? Is there a colour difference on #3?

Edit#2: Oh yes, just to clarify - we non-American English speakers use # to mean "number", whereas you lot use it to mean "pounds" I believe. Although why you need to mention British currency is beyond me :poke
 
#24 ·
Cyl 3 is hitting consistently, cyl 2 and 1 are coming in and out. At its worst, it appears I'm losing cyl 1 and cyl 2 then goes with it.
Today should be clear, only a 20% chance of rain. So it might be clear, or we are going to get hammered like we did last evening!
I should be able to spend some time with the bike today. I'll probably pull the carbs off and take a look. I don't expect to find anything, only because I haven't found any nasties in the carbs since I've owned the bike, but it's free and I have some time. If I don't find anything in the carbs, I'll pull the generator and have a look at it. And I'll put my Nology coils back in.
 
#25 ·
I had my alt rebuilt. Any shop that deals in denso can do it, but probably won't have a test rig for it. If you want to ship it to CA, I can vouch for one that will build a rig for it. They did well on mine. But some one local should he able to do it for you.
 
#27 ·
If #3 stays good and #1 and #2 are doing the dropping, I would be thinking fuel starvation, since the #1 carb is furthest from the input at the rail. If you have an inline filter, I would remove it. I had one that worked just fine for a while, but then I had issues and removed it. The ethanol has lengthened and softened the two plastic teats so much that they hardly passed any fuel. Once I sealed my tank I went back to just the petcock and duckbill filters, and have had no issues since.
On my Tiger, I thought I had a bad pick up coil. It would run for a while fine, then die. After sitting by the road a while, it would start up and run just fine again, then quit. When I pulled the duckbill filter, I found it partially plug by this snotty looking substance. What was happening was the fuel bowls were slowly refilling as the fuel seeped through the snotty blockage, and then once I had run these dry, it quit again. So what seemed temperature related was actually time related. Not sure if you might have some kind of partial blockage that is doing the same, but easy enough to check your fuel filters. I like the clear fuel lines which give you some way of seeing fuel behavior in the line itself.
Honestly, it still sounds electrical to me, and on the Tigertriple forum, I have heard of someone replacing fuses that looked good and correcting a gremlin like this. We just spent a day with Rick's bike chasing a weak spark, and cleaning the clutch switch and regapping the pick up coil seemed to have cured it. Rick mentioned that when checking the coil gap his feeler gauge was attracted to the magnet and felt like he was feeling the tension of the gap when it was really the magnetism, so maybe give that a doublecheck as well? Perhaps the gap is slightly open, and the tolerances of the toothed plate are off enough on just the cylinders that are dropping out? A warm engine may exacerbate the gap issue? Seems logical and possible to my feeble mind:)
 
#28 · (Edited)
Thanks for the insight Sevvy. I appreciate your input, and everyone's ideas.
I took the opportunity Sunday to pull the carbs. I found that the choke cable wasn't fully releasing the bar, but it looked like it was allowing the enrichment needles to fully seat. It was close, so I pulled the cable and tried some penetrating oil on it. I got it fully locked up. It won't budge, so I'll have to order a new one. I took the carbs out. The duckbill filter was clean as a whistle. I don't run a secondary fuel filter. I opened the carbs up, removed the jets and they were all clean. Checked all the orifices and blew thru with carb cleaner, and they were all clean and clear. My slide diaphragms looked good. My slides show a little wear, but I don't think they're causing any trouble.
I made a little cardboard horseshoe gauge and checked my floats. They were a little low (as measured) so I adjusted them up to 17.5mm (using Rollinslow84's socket method. Thanks for that!). So, the carbs looked clean. I took the bike out for a run after the hockey game (GO BLUES!) and it started missing at lower RPM's after she got hot, as I expected it to.
She was missing really bad when I got home. I got the meter out and checked voltage while she was idling. My meter has a little analog simulator on the bottom of the readout. I was watching the voltage rise and fall from 13.5vdc to 11.8vdc. I could hear a cylinder coming in and out with the rise and fall of the voltage. Pretty cool. I think I am going to look for a reasonably priced replacement for my generator, and send my faulty one out for repair.
 
#31 ·
I got the meter out and checked voltage while she was idling. My meter has a little analog simulator on the bottom of the readout. I was watching the voltage rise and fall from 13.5vdc to 11.8vdc. I could hear a cylinder coming in and out with the rise and fall of the voltage.
Are you certain you're not confusing the cause with the effect? If the cylinder is dropping out, your RPM will drop as will the generator output. OTOH, if the generator output drops, the battery should pick up the slack, and I wouldn't normally expect to see an immediate drop to less than 12 volts unless either the battery or the wiring was bad.

Before you spring for a different generator, you might want to do some more troubleshooting. You could completely remove the generator from the picture. It should continue to run fine on t he battery for quite some time as long as the battery is up to snuff. (Another reason I'm not convinced the alternator is the root cause.)
 
#29 ·
Interesting. So we're full circle to where you started this with it possibly being electrical load and the heater. You should have trusted your gut!

I tried to find a good used one before going the rebuild route and my patience wore thin. Hope you've better luck. Maybe now that its not winter more parts will turn up on eBay.

There's a great diagnosis/rebuild thread on here that that you could use if you want to dig into the alternator yourself.
http://www.triumphrat.net/t3-sport-touring-forum/134079-dissecting-the-nd-25-amp-alternator.html

You can find the regulator, rectifier and bearings if you look hard enough. You might even be able to buy them from a Denso dealing rebuilder. I wasn't willing to work that hard, I just wanted it fixed.

Oh and my rebuilder isn't any great secret, sorry if I put it out there that way. In case someone else comes across this thread in the future, here's their info

http://www.buchananautoelectric.com/
Buchanan Auto Electric
2300 Mandela Pkwy
Oakland, CA 94607
Phone number (510) 452-4025

Scott
 
#30 · (Edited)
Interesting. So we're full circle to where you started this with it possibly being electrical load and the heater. You should have trusted your gut!

I tried to find a good used one before going the rebuild route and my patience wore thin. Hope you've better luck. Maybe now that its not winter more parts will turn up on eBay.

Scott
Here's the thing, though... I changed the plugs about 2 months ago and the problem disappeared.

This bike stuff can be fun sometimes. I had the stator on my Sprint ST run to ground, but only when it got hot.

I was looking at used generators on ebay, and I can't really find a "good" used one. I mean, what is good? A video showing the bike running before it's parted out? My bike runs just fine, before it gets hot. Showing a voltmeter while it's running? I can do that, too and show 14.7vdc when I first start it up and it's cold. None of the used generators on Ebay are guaranteed. So I'm kind of leery about throwing good money after bad. I did find a guy here in the St. Louis area that deals with Denso, can get parts, and seemed willing to work on my generator. Milligan Auto Electric, in O'Fallon MO. Another old time generator shop in STL on Broadway, Broner, whined about denso's and really didn't want to work on it. That's fine.
Thanks for posting up about the rebuilder in California. I didn't have anything here local when I asked you about your guy.
 
#32 ·
#34 ·
^^^ and well you did, post 29.
Sorry about that, I missed it. It's still gold...
 
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