Triumphrat

DaleE · 06-14-2006

It seems like June is the month when starters take a holiday.

My starter has been working intermittently for the last two or three weeks, and has finally quit outright. Previously, if the starting motor didn't engage, I was able to get it going by putting it in gear, rolling it forward and inch or two, and then putting it back in neutral and trying the starter again. That worked just fine until yesterday, when no amount of cajoling would get the starter to turn.

I've measured the battery voltage on several different occasions, and I was always getting upwards of thirteen volts. I've checked the connections, and they appear to be fine and un-corroded. Just to be sure, I put the battery on charge, and when it showed a full charge I tried again. Still nothing.

When I measure the voltage at the solenoid, it drops to zero when the starter button is pushed. Otherwise, it's about two volts (???). Shorting across the terminals has no apparent effect.

Here's my question: I've found a place here in town that will renew the starter for around a hundred dollars. Can I be absolutely sure that the starter is the culprit before pulling off the carbs and draining the coolant and all that nonsense? Based on the comments that I've read regarding other members' starter problems, I have to guess that my solenoid is not the problem here, but it would be nice to be sure.

Thanks, folks.

Dale

Tre900 · 06-14-2006

Oh man, I'm not sure on this one.

I've never experienced the dreaded Starter death.

What I will offer is another set of eyes when your ready to do the removal assuming that's required. Let me know and I can laugh and point and drink beer while you do the work!

j/k

I've got a manual and some good wrenches but it sounds like you need some input from someone that's actually dealt with this before.

Good luck and remember it's just an opportunity to become more experienced with that machine of yours.

Jimmie

jimmyj900 · 06-14-2006

Quote:

My starter has been working intermittently for the last two or three weeks, and has finally quit outright...

Does the starter motor turn and not engage the engine OR does the starter motor not spin at all?

If the starter motor spins but doesn't engage then you may have a sprag clutch problem or broken starter shaft.

[quote]I've measured the battery voltage on several different occasions, and I was always getting upwards of thirteen volts. I've checked the connections, and they appear to be fine and un-corroded. Just to be sure, I put the battery on charge, and when it showed a full charge I tried again. Still nothing. [quote]

No load battery voltage should be 13.2 volts. You need to check battery voltage while cranking the starter to determine if the battery capacity has dropped. I'd be very suspicious of a battery that dropped to 10V or less in the first 5 seconds of cranking.

Quote:

When I measure the voltage at the solenoid, it drops to zero when the starter button is pushed. Otherwise, it's about two volts (???). Shorting across the terminals has no apparent effect.

The voltage across the solenoid should drop to zero when cranking, so that's probably OK.

Two volts without cranking says there's a high resistance across/through the starter motor which may indicate worn/broken/stuck brushes, a burned commutator, broken brush tension spring(s) or several other things.

Quote:

Here's my question: I've found a place here in town that will renew the starter for around a hundred dollars. Can I be absolutely sure that the starter is the culprit before pulling off the carbs and draining the coolant and all that nonsense? Based on the comments that I've read regarding other members' starter problems, I have to guess that my solenoid is not the problem here, but it would be nice to be sure.

You can't be sure about the starter until you remove it from the bike and take a good look at the brushes, commutator and brush plate.

There are two different starters: Taigene and Nippon Denso.

The brushes should move smoothly in the brush guides but if they're sticking you can blast the crud out with brake cleaner. Don't use the non-flamable brake cleaner since it may damage insulation.

If the brush tension springs are hitting the brush guides (or are close) then you need new brushes.

I think the Kawasaki EX500 brushes are supposed to fit the Taigene for about $35 and Triumph has replacement brushes for the Denso (unless I've got that backwards.)

If it's not the brushes then a $100 repair is basically 1-2 hours for labor, so that isn't a bad price.

Jim

DaleE · 06-14-2006

Thanks a million, Jim. No, the starter motor doesn't turn at all. Nothing. Nada. Just the clicking of the solenoid.

Based on what you've said, I'll go ahead and remove the starter and take it in to the shop.

And thanks to you, too, Jimmie. If you want to watch and laugh, I'll probably start disassembling the bike tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers,

Dale

denny · 06-15-2006

I had to replace a Starter solenoid recently on my TBS. When it went bad it would click every time I push the starter switch but the starter would not turn over. I'd be checking that too. I think it cost about 45$ from the dealer.

benthepaint · 06-15-2006

IT,S DEAD GET ANOTHER ONE

Ben
.. :hammer:

:yayyy:

DaleE · 06-16-2006

The auto-electric shop called this morning. They say that the armature is bad on the starter, and so the whole unit will have to be replaced instead of repaired. It's going to cost me $175, which hurts but which is still probably a whole lot less than I'd pay if I ordered it from the local Triumph dealer.

At least one more week w/o my ride. Grumble.

jimmyj900 · 06-16-2006

DaleE, which starter motor do you have -- Denso or Taigene?

It's unusual to have an armature 'failure' and there have been a number of starter problems reported lately, so it's worth tracking.

Jim

[ This message was edited by: jimmyj900 on 2006-06-16 17:19 ]

TBSstunta · 06-16-2006

Add me to the Starter Wonkiness Club™.

What's been happening to me is very infrequently, although a little more so now, I get clicking at the Solenoid. Just happened to me this evening, swung by the local coffee place for morning supplies and when I came out clicky clicky from the right side-cover. So I bump start her and off we go. Park it in the garage and the starter works just fine. Brand spanking new battery too and the cables are really tight to the terminals.

Mine is the Denso starter. Can it be as simple as loose wiring at the solenoid?

So far the majority of responses in this thread say that the starter is culprit, but why wouldn't it be the solenoid? When it does, which is almost all the time, mine cranks nice and strong. What's funny is that a week ago when it did that in the driveway I went back inside to get tools to check if my cables were loose, and when I came out it cranked right up.

For the edification of myself and everyone else, what are the symptoms of a bad starter vs. a bad solenoid? (Beyond the obvious, "Well the bike won't start" :-D )

Also, is there a cheaper UJM alternative for the solenoid?

PS> On the topic of bump-starting, are you supposed to hold down the starter button when you let out the clutch?

jimmyj900 · 06-16-2006

I should have warned you about 'auto-electric' shops. Some are good but some are cr*p and send their problems out to industrial electric motor shops.

I used to repair servo motors for a major European manufacturer and the standard practice for a DC motor was to hose it out with brake cleaner, do a visual inspection, turn the commutator, replace the bearings and brushes, slap it back together and try it out.

If it didn't run, we sent it to a real motor shop for repair and charged the customer 2 or 3 times what he would have paid if he sent it to a local motor shop! :razz:

Jim