Triumphrat

tommyP

I'm starting this thread to log my experiences with this bike in the hopes it will educate some of my fellows. Suggestions and comments are welcome, obviously.

Background. I bought a '99 Legend about a month ago. The seller was honest that the bike had not had much maintenance in the last two years and the bike roughly idled. He also didn't ride it much. I purchased the bike knowing at least some basic maintenance was in my future. I figured new fluids, air filter, spark plugs, and clean the carbs. On the 35 mile trip home, the bike did idle roughly and stalled frequently at stop lights. About 25% choke seemed to keep it hovering around 1500 RPM and if it fell below 1500 RPM it would stumble and stall out. A tiny touch of throttle would also keep it alive. And once moving the bike felt very strong and ran perfectly smooth. Although in the stop and go traffic I never got the bike out of 3rd gear so I'm not sure about the higher RMP range.

Based on how the bike behaved on the trip home, I assumed a clogged pilot jet given the strong performance once the throttle was opened even a smiggen. But there is more going on. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get the bike running since the day I bought it. The starter motor turns, the engine rotates, but no action whatsoever.

What makes a bike start one day and not the next? Battery? After trying different choke/idle adjustment combinations to get the thing to fire up, the battery was definately weak. I charged the battery. After the recommended duration of charging, it tested out @ 12.8 volts and stabalized to about 12.6 volts after about 1 hour. I believe this means the battery is OK. I installed the battery, but bike would not start.

After reading an article on the Web Bike World web page regarding carborator problems on Triumph Triples, I bought a can of Sea Foam and added it to the gas tank. The author detailed great results in solving carborator problems. Of course for Sea Foam to actually clean the carbs the bike does have to run so that the chemicals can work their way through the system. But it couldn't hurt and I did forget to ask the previous owner how old the gas in the tank was and I figured Sea Foam would help if the gas had gone bad.

Next I inspected the spark plugs. As a side note, to the guy who gave us 2 inches of working space over the middle plug, YOU . . . YOU . . .@#$!%$%#@. The plugs were not the plugs recommended by Haynes, they are instead NGK DPR7EA-9. If I search the NGK web site, they say the plugs should be NGK DPR8EA-9. At any rate I ordered the Haynes recommend plugs from Bike Bandit which have not arrived yet because in the same order I bought some OEM Triumph parts. And there is a 10 day lag time on the Triumph OEM stuff. Definately going to try the dealer from now on.

All three plugs were covered in gas because I pulled them after a few attempts at starting. So I know fuel is getting into the cylinders, whether or not in the correct air/gas ratio or properly atomized, I do not know. The two outside plugs looked great. The middle plug tip looked fine, but the terminal was a little loose in the insulator. All three had proper gag. I cleaned, re-gapped and re-installed. Bike would not start.

tommyP

Generally speaking, a motor getting both fuel and fire will start. May not run well, but it will do something. The gas on the tip of the plugs tells me there is fuel. So that may mean I'm not getting spark. I bought an OEM brand spark tester at AutoZone. You plug the spark plug wire into the end and clamp the other end to the frame or motor to ground it. Then you crank the motor over. I got no spark at all. But the battery was once again drained after several failed attempts at starting so I put it back on the charger.

While the battery was charging, I reviewed the Ingnition systems chapter in the Haynes and then began a series of tests.

First, the side stand switch. My Triumph manual says nothing about the side stand switch or indicator light. The switch is on the bike so it does exist, but I have never seen any light go on. Either bike is not fitted with a side stand indicator light or it has blown out. I should say at this point I did check all electrics. Turn signals, head light, hazard/flashers, horn, tach lights, speedometer lights, break light, neutral indicator, high beam indicator, etc. all work. At any rate, the side stand switch is fully operational based on the recommended tests.

Next I tested the the resistance of the spark plug wires. I should say I have a shnazzy digital multi-meter from Radio Shack with auto range select between Ohms, KiloOhms, and MegaOhms. The Haynes indicates setting the multi-meter to 1 Ohm or 1K ohm range, which I just leave my unit on Auto Range. Not sure if it makes a difference. The spark plug wires tested @ 4.52, 4.75, and 4.98 KiloOhms. An internet search revealed that starndard spark plug wire would have between 10-15 KiloOhms of resitance per foot of wire. Since the Legend wires are are about 6 inches long or less, I believe my readings indicate the wires are good.

I next tested the HT coils. The bike has the original Gill coils. For all three coils the resitance was 1.2 Ohms exactly for the primary coil. There was no reading for the secondary coil, which indicates an open circuit, or infinate resitance. 1.2 Ohms is about double the resitance speced out by Haynes. However, the manual does cover triples and fours from 1991 to 2004 and could simple not account for all variations among the models. Or on the other hand my coils may be toast. However, that fact that all three give the same primary coil reading leads me to believe that Haynes is wrong because I think it would be unusual for all three coils to fail. As for the Secondary coil giving no reading, I may have simply performed the test incorrectly.

The battery had been on the charger about 1.5 hours and was testing @ 12.4 volts. I installed the battery and tried the spark tester thingy again. I expected no spark given the failed coil tests. However, each coil gave a pretty good spark. It was kind of yellowish. I guess it's supposed to be blue. I'm guessing that the yellow spark may indicate bad coils, or that the battery was not fully charged, or simply that the spark tester do-dad does not give as strong of spark as an actual spark plug.

Next steps.

- Test the Pickup Coil. I expect an good result given the positive spark test.
- Install new spark plugs when they arrive.
- Fully Charge the Battery.
- Clean the carborators and check float height etc.
- Clean or replace the Air filter.
- Change the oil and oil filter. Hopefully bike is running at this point so I can warm the oil for proper drainage.
- Flush the cooling system.
- Flush the Front and Rear break fluid.
- Flush the Clucth fluid.
- Possibly change the fork oil and seals. Noticed the tiniest hint of oil on the fork tubes.
- RIDE RIDE RIDE RIDE.

denny

After the battery is fully charged, take it to an auto parts store and have it stress tested. A battery can accept a charge, but not pass a stress test. These bikes are very hard on Batteries. A weak battery will not produce a good hot spark at cranking speed. ie if the load of the starter causes the voltage to drop too much during cranking, there is not enough voltage to create a good hot spark.

This might seem like overkill, but I've experienced this myself. I had 2 month old battery fail like that once. It would accept a charge, but when I finally took it for a stress test it failed that miserably. A good strong battery will test at approx 13.8 volts when fully charged.

The rest of your procedure seems OK.

Testing the coils with a meter is not always reliable.
When a coil starts to go bad , it will start to misfire when the engine is warmed up, so using a meter on a cold coil will not show any problem. Yes it is unusual for all 3 coils to fail at the same time.

__________________
Cheers,Denny

cafetbird

Right on, Denny. The battery is a likely culprit much of the time on these bikes, both when the bike has been left sitting, and also after the bike has been ridden all season with no battery maintenance. The two most important tools to get and use regularly are a Battery Tender and a bottle of distilled water.

CV Carbs are finicky beasts. This is espically true if the fuel/air system has been fooled around with. You have to really know what you are doing to get them set up right, and you need to remember to shut off the fuel when they sit up.


Man, there are so many poorly maintained old T-Birds and Legends out there (mostly changing hands) that we hear this same story about once a week. Batteries and Carbs are to worst culprits, with an occasional Gill coil issue....

__________________
Scot Dail, IBA #31553; 59 Club #29906
Old Photo Album : New Photo Album
"Thunderbirds are GOOOOOOOO!"

Legend JJ

i'm a great example of this situation! i'd highly suggest reading through the Restoring a Legend thread to give you some pointers. the guys here really helped me out a lot with getting mine running when it didn't run at all.

like these guys are saying, i'd highly recommend buying a new battery from the dealer. not only does your bike (more than likely) need it, if you have any issues it can be brought back to them. sure it will cost a little more, but if your experience is like most of us, that's money well spent for local service. while you're waiting for your parts to show up, take the carbs off and clean them. while you're at it drain and replenish every fluid in your bike. it'll thank you very much once it's on the road

jaguartvr

I would suggest that as the bike seems to have been standing for two years with little use that the battery is probably past its best.
I had a t-bird with 3 1/2k on the clock. Started first time every time. Once I tried starting it with the fuel tap turner off. Obviously wouldn't start, I then realised what I had done, turned the tap on but flooded the engine. The bike then became impossible to start even after leaving for a week. Fresh plugs and an oil change saw it back to normal. Was it the flooding ,or the oil on the bores being washed away, or the fouled plugs? No Idea but only when the oil and plugs were changed would it start normaly.
When starting I find slight choke, clutch lever in and no throttle is the way to go. Any variation can cause sarting problems.

tommyP

Thanks for the comments and advice. You all really helped me decided that a new battery is needed.

I bought a new battery from Batteries Plus. After core deposit, $5 coupon, and tax the battery came to $93. It don't recall the model number but it is a sealed AGM with a 2 year Warrenty. In order to keep the warrenty valid the battery must be kept charged with a battery tender in the off season. If the battery is found to be defective (they keep it for 24 hours, charge it, and test it) I will be provided a new battery. The clerk at batteries plus wanted to look up the replacement off the model numbers on the old battery. I requested instead she look up the battery based on Make/Model in the computer system because I was not sure that the battery I had was appropriate for the bike other than the form factor did fit in the battery box. The new battery is supposedly able to privide more cold cranking amps. I figured given all of the battery problems reported for the triples, a premium battery would better my odds, and if not I've got a 2 year warrenty.

The battery tested @ 12.5 volts when I got home, but I never got to installing it to see if the bike would start. I was hoping to be more scientific, changing only on variable at a time in order to definitivley identify the source/sources of my problems. But those plans have changed.

When I removed the old battery to take to Batteries Plus, I noticed a gas odor. Turns out the fuel like split in half at the petcock end. Probably due to being a bit old and weakened from repeated installation and removal of the gas tank. So I picked up some fuel line too. I thought I could just pop on the new line quick and easy. However, the other end of the fuel line attachs to the carbs (Keihin on my bike) in a difficult spot. To get to the fitting I would have to remove the air filter box, and to remove the air filter box I would have to loosen the carbs. At this point I just decieded to take off the carbs completely because I had planned to clean the carbs at some point. And the new Air Filter box I order from Bike Bandit should be arriving any day any way.

Taking off the carbs was pretty easy once I got the pattern of wiggle-pull-wiggle-pull down. I will say the throttle cable stumpted me for a minute or two until I realized I just needed to take the cable adjustments all the way in to give the cable maximum slack. I drained the float bowels and stored the carbs in a ventalated area. I'll need to takle that another day.

One issue I noticed in separating the air box from the carbs was that the connecting sleeve between the air filter and middle carb was inaccessible by my standard length 3mm hex key. Looks like I will need to pick up a 5-6 inch 3mm hex key to access this clamp screw. Oddly enough I loosened the outer two sleeve clamps and the air filter pulled back with no problem. I wonder if that middle clamp was properly tightened? Could be someone didn't have a 6 inch long 3mm hex key when it was installed last. Air leak problem?

Even more odd is that flat head screws on the clamps connecting carbs to the motor. My standard lenght screw driver worked fine there, no problem. So why not put flat head screws on the ait filter clamps from the factory instead of a 3mm hex that requires a special tool? And don't even get me started on the liberal use of Torx bolts. I happened to already own a set so I wasn't too put out, but com'on, really! My last bike was an older Honda that I could litteraly take a part and put back together with about 9 standard (common) tools.

Next step - CLean the carbs

Legend JJ

did you buy the OEM air box or the K&N air filter?

i wondered that as well! Craftsman makes a larger set of metric hex keys that reach in that far. it would be even better if you have a ratcheting screw driver for this job since the space is so tight plus you can easily switch from common to hex

don't forget to do this while you have the carbs out...

go very slow with the drill or you will core out the screw head. i got mine out 2.5 turns as the guys suggested and it was perfect. it also wouldn't hurt to throw a small fuel filter onto your gas line. it's cheap and much easier to replace than cleaning out the carbs if something flakes in your tank

ssevy

I use one of these, and it works like a charm:

http://www.wihatools.com/300seri/367mm_MRser.htm

I also took the time to clean and lube the threads of all of the clamp screws while I had them off, so that they tighten smoothly, and won't bind up the next time they're taken off (with these carbs, there is always a next time).

I ordered the fuel line from Triumph, as it is a preformed shape, and as you discovered, fuel line of the proper inner diameter that you use on a car is too large on the outside diameter, and makes for difficult attachment at the carb end.
Be sure to remove and clean the duckbill filter which lies inside the pipe that the fuel line attaches to at the carb end. Hold it in a rag and spray it from outside in with carb cleaner, and it will blow all the debris out and into the cloth.
Don't be intimidated by the carbs. Take them apart one step at a time, and put everything on a clean sheet of paper, numbered in the order you removed it. I use a large piece of heavy butcher's paper. After cleaning everything, simply put the pieces back together in the reverse order of their removal. This method has been a lifesaver for me when rebuilding engines in cars, as I never have a large enough chunk of time to finish the job in one go, and so have to come back to it after a long period, and without the notes and careful organization, I could not remember where I had left off.
You'll find all of the specs you need in threads here, and some time just reading will be time well spent.
I also encourage you to seek out a gunsmith's set of screwdrivers if you can find them. Their tip is machined out of the screwdriver shaft, so that the blade is the full shaft width, and can be inserted into the pilot jets to the full diameter. Most screwdrivers are flattened, and have that pair of shoulders that stick out beyond the width of the tip, so by the time you get the shoulder to squeeze into the pilot jet access tubes, you only have a narrow tip in the slots, and they have little purchase and can round out. Obviously, a set of these can be used as regular screwdrivers, too, and since their design is intended to not round out all those visible screws on rifle scope mounts, etc., they are also perfect for carb work.

These are the set I have:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/8364/Screwdrivers


Finally, remember the most important dictum: "It is always the battery".

tommyP

I bought the OEM air filter box. I read up on threads and articles about replacing the innner filter with a K&N filter. Or possibly cleaning the existing internal filter. I would consider going the cleaning/replacing route if the bike were in top running condition and all I wanted to do was perioodic maintenance. But given that I just bought the bike and don't know the history, I prefer to start with fresh consumables, like oil, air filters, all fluids, and spark plugs. Usually cheap/easy stuff on all non-Triumph make bikes.

Also, the chome side cover screws into the air box and the plastic has broke one on each side. So I have only one bolt on each side holding on the covers. I don't know if the other plastic is possibly broken also creating the potential for air leak.

Also, I noticed the K&N filters were like 45 bucks and the OEM is $65. So for the extra $20 I decided to go with the whole box. I'll try to repair the box I have, clean up the filter and keep it as a spare.

Also, I have read through your thread, THANKS!