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ECM and FI Tuning - Help, Tips & Tricks We invite members from across TriumphRat.net to post your questions, or share your expertise or experiences on TuneBoy, TuneECU and PowerCommander (etc).

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Old 10-29-2012, 09:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Should i be using my 02 sensors?

I'm running a custom tune by a reputable tuner who used tuneecu to dyno tune someones Thunderbird with the same setup i have, no cat, uni filter, tors. I recently changed my setup a bit by removing a restrictive part of the intake then increasing fuel in the trim by 3% in all the cells that were enriched in the map from the tors tune it originated from. The bike really came to life, but i have no way to know how close i am or whether i am running rich or lean.

Heres the thing. The tuner disabled 02 sensors in this map and also set the F-l switch to zero so i guess it only uses one fuel map, the performance one. My main concern are the cells that are the same in the tors map AND this decat tune that was derived from the tors tune, and which i also left unchanged. They are low throttle low RPM cruise mainly. With this info, can you tell me if i would benefit by enabling the 02's or with the F-L switch set to zero will it even matter? I was thinking maybe they would allow the bike to adapt to those low throttle RPM areas that might be lean. I know some may be tired of my posts over the last few days, this being the 3rd, and i'm sorry. But i haven't gotten any answers and i'm just trying to figure this out the best way i can. What i did with opening the airway a bit and adding fuel really surprised me at how well it worked and i don't want to lose that. But i also don't want to ruin my engine.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dazco View Post
My main concern are the cells that are the same in the tors map AND this decat tune that was derived from the tors tune, and which i also left unchanged. They are low throttle low RPM cruise mainly. With this info, can you tell me if i would benefit by enabling the 02's or with the F-L switch set to zero will it even matter?
dazco, not sure if I can help but I will share this.
I had a custom TuneECU tune done for my America (after motor mods) by an experienced / knowledgeable tuner and have compared that tune to the base tune it was derived from. O2 sensors were removed before the engine was altered. Small tuning change without O2 sensors really improved the low RPM response, snatchy low throttle response was gone! The TOR tune 20184 was the base tune he started with. I had cams & big bore mods done on my 09 America EFI. I then also opened up the air box some and modified my short TORs. Basically significant mechanical changes and surprisingly modest tuning changes (OK, some decent changes but in a smaller area of the map than expected). The custom tune after these mods still left many cells unchanged. F table cells below 2000 RPM and 10% TP were basically unchanged. L table cells below 370 hPa air pressure unchanged. My F-L values were changed but none are 0'ed out. They do decrease from 16 down to 6.
A dyno run to verify A/F or exhaust gases would be best. Changing things without being able to test the changes could be tempting danger.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't mean this the way it sounds, but can you explain what the point is? I didn't quite get the overall point you were trying to convey and whether it had to do with my sensors and if i would benefit by re-enabling them.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dazco View Post
I don't mean this the way it sounds, but can you explain what the point is?
OK, I can get wordy and miss my point. (even worse after a few adult beverages) What I was trying to say was related to your concern about unchanged map cells in the TOR vs the decat tune.
In my case there were many cells in the low RPM area of Both F & L tables that were unchanged or changed very little after mods creating increased air flow and different fueling needs. Yes, the changes in the areas above 2000RPM varied from small to very big.
As far as the O2 sensors go, not sure I can add anything. Both my local shop and the experienced (using TuneECU) tuner that did my dyno-tune do away with the O2 sensors with most mods. My snatchy / twitchy low RPM throttle response was gone after removing them and can't see putting them back.
My input here probably doesn't help any, hope it helps my first response make some sense.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:09 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MattyMo View Post
OK, I can get wordy and miss my point. (even worse after a few adult beverages) What I was trying to say was related to your concern about unchanged map cells in the TOR vs the decat tune.
In my case there were many cells in the low RPM area of Both F & L tables that were unchanged or changed very little after mods creating increased air flow and different fueling needs. Yes, the changes in the areas above 2000RPM varied from small to very big.
As far as the O2 sensors go, not sure I can add anything. Both my local shop and the experienced (using TuneECU) tuner that did my dyno-tune do away with the O2 sensors with most mods. My snatchy / twitchy low RPM throttle response was gone after removing them and can't see putting them back.
My input here probably doesn't help any, hope it helps my first response make some sense.
Well, my thought was that the sensors would correct the low RPM/low throtytle cruise areas which like yours are unchanged but now may be lean due to the extra intake. But with the FL switch at zero i'm not sure if turning them on would be a good thing. I'd just go and try it but i removed them from the bike so they don't go bad as some say will happen isf they go unused. And it's a PITA to get the connectors back on. I also wonder if theres any reason it would be a bad thing with the changes made. I may just have to try it tho.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Maybe someone can answer this so i don't have to start another thread. The custom map i use has 02 sensors disabled (plus i physically removed them) and the F-L switch all set to zero. Afew questions concerning this..

1)-Are the A/F tables in the map are 100% unused since the 02's are disabled?
2)-are the A/F tables sole purpose to give the sensors a target when they are activated?
3)-are the map sensors used at all now with the F-L switch at 0 across the board?
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dazco View Post
1)-Are the A/F tables in the map are 100% unused since the 02's are disabled?
2)-are the A/F tables sole purpose to give the sensors a target when they are activated?
No, the A/F tables have nothing to do with the O2 sensor(s). Based on the air mass values in the F & L tables the fuel management system will deliver the correct quantity of fuel to achieve the specified A/F value. However, the actual air mass values for your bike will not be exactly the same as those in the F & L Tables and so the resulting A/F may bear little resemblance to the value in the A/F table. The system does not correct this.

In closed-loop mode the system uses feedback from the O2 sensor(s) to achieve the correct A/F but in that situation it is trying to achieve stoichiometric A/F ratio. Once you go open loop the system does not try to achieve the values specified in the A/F tables.

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Originally Posted by dazco View Post
3)-are the map sensors used at all now with the F-L switch at 0 across the board?
Not sure about that. I used to believe that would be the case but practical experience with my own bike indicates that the MAP sensor is still having some influence at higher rpm where the modified F-L Switch value is 0.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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No, the A/F tables have nothing to do with the O2 sensor(s).
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Originally Posted by champ87 View Post
Once you go open loop the system does not try to achieve the values specified in the A/F tables.
Isn't this conflicting? I may be misunderstanding what you meant. But the A/F tables i'm talking about show a air/fuel ratio in this type of format=Example: 13:1. You said the 02 sensor has nothing to do with that. But in the 2nd quote it would appear that by saying in open loop it doesn't try and achieve the A/F tables, doesn't that insinuate it DOES try in closed? And if so, wouldn't it need the 02's to do that? So what exactly do the 02's do if they don't try and achieve the A/F tables. Aren't the F1 and 2 tables just numbers that indicate the amount of fuel with no respect to air like the A/F table? I'm just trying to understand.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:16 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The bike really came to life, but i have no way to know how close i am or whether i am running rich or lean.
My guess is running more rich than lean. If the bike came to life, it means more gas to make more power, correct? Lean, you fall on your face, the forks dive you add more air, correct?

Quote:
The tuner disabled 02 sensors in this map and also set the F-l switch to zero so i guess it only uses one fuel map, the performance one.
There are many maps to be pulled up. Think of it more like an X to Y = Z. So, rpm times throttle position = The fuel setting no matter the conditions met.

Quote:
My main concern are the cells that are the same in the tors map AND this decat tune that was derived from the tors tune, and which i also left unchanged. They are low throttle low RPM cruise mainly. With this info, can you tell me if i would benefit by enabling the 02's or with the F-L switch set to zero will it even matter? I was thinking maybe they would allow the bike to adapt to those low throttle RPM areas that might be lean.
Open loop has no 02. Closed loop has the 02. Remember, the intake goes rich, the 02 clicks a lean sensing that fat, wet, move. It senses it went too lean, it switches back to rich. 02 keeps correcting for a certain A/F target. Make sense you don't want the 02 in play? You'll lose what you feel now, correct?



Quote:
Originally Posted by dazco View Post

1)-Are the A/F tables in the map are 100% unused since the 02's are disabled?
2)-are the A/F tables sole purpose to give the sensors a target when they are activated?
3)-are the map sensors used at all now with the F-L switch at 0 across the board?
1. No. If you set the map for 13.2 A/F, the 02 is going to keep aiming for 13.2 A/F. The 02 is an on/off switch that is stabilizing the preset A/F map. It has no clue what stoic is? It is an on and off trigger is all.
2. Yes. A preset morning map pops up and sets a rich condition w/throttle plate open slightly is one example, or it wouldn't start to hard starting in the morning. L maps are for idle to mid throttle. F maps are mid to WOT (wide open throttle). When the rpm is set here, the throttle set there, the intake air pressure and the rest, send in that input. A map is ready to X the Y to send the Z = Fuel injection delivering its fuel proportion.
3. Yes. The complex are the math chips, the motherboard and her hard parts. The maps can be redundant maps. If all sensors failed, and I'm talking all sensors but the one [crank] sensor, then the rpm and ecu will calc the fuel trim with those maps. I hear there are hundreds of maps written inside the ecu. You could not tell the difference if most of the input sensors signed off all at once; you won't feel a thing lost it keeps on running in the redundancy and those maps.

How close did I get to [you] figuring out some of the steps you were wondering about?

Last edited by TT140; 11-05-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
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No. If you set the map for 13.2 A/F, the 02 is going to keep aiming for 13.2 A/F. The 02 is an on/off switch that is stabilizing the preset A/F map. It has no clue what stoic is? It is an on and off trigger is all.
But the question was concerning whether the A/F table is used WITHOUT any 02 sensors. They aren't even physically on the bike anymore let alone being disabled in the map. So is the A/F table still used and if so, how? Theres nothing to tell the ECU what A/F is being accomplished, right?
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